# Caves, citywalls and damn good beer, too: DutchDope January 22-23, anyone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128 "2004-11-16T21:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/1 "2004-11-16T21:29:34Z")
[Praguedope](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282625&highlight=Prague) was so much fun that I’m organizing a Dopefest in my hometown, Maastricht, Netherlands, Europe. I’m thinking two days, somewhere between december 25 and January first. Most of you probably haven’t heard of Maastricht. The city might very well be the best kept secret of the Netherlands. \*\*Where? \*\* [Maastricht](http://www.vvvmaastricht.nl/) is located at the southernest point of the Netherlands. It’s a comfy 2,5 hour train-ride from Amsterdam (and from main Dutch airport Schiphol); five hours by high-speed-train from Paris; one hour’s flight from London, directly to Maastricht-Aachen airport; and less then a two hour’s drive from the lovely and ancient Belgian cities Brussels, Antwerp, Leuven, [Ghent](http://www.gent.be/gent/english/index.htm) and [Brughes](http://www.brugge.be/toerisme/en/index.htm)). Similarly, the drive from Maastricht to the German cities of [Aachen](http://www.aachen.de/EN/tourism_city_information/Current_information/index.html) and [Colonge](http://www.koeln.de/en/) (Koln) is also a 90 minute drive. I can highly recommend combining a visit to Maastricht with visiting any of these cities. Americans are always surprised at how small the distances are between the main European cities. **The city:** Actually, Maastricht is the oldest town in the Netherlands. The only Dutch city with more monuments and old buildings is Amsterdam. Over two thousand years ago [Maastricht](http://www.tutorgig.com/ed/Maastricht) was an Roman armycamp near a busy bridge, and it has been inhabited ever since. The entire city centre is, in essence, still medieval, and its cobbled streets are dotted with the cosiest little restaurants and cafe’s, most of them boasting beer-lists as long as your arm. It’s a cosy city, relaxed. According to our very own **Coldfire** , who went to university here, but fled back to busy metropole Amsterdam after getting his degree, the pace of life is: “Fucking slooooow” 😃 **What to do** Everything is within walking distance, so citywalks are the nicest way to get around. I volunteered a while as city-guide, to get to know all the nooks and crannies of the city. I’ve also found a friend of mine willing to give us an illegal tour of the caves in the nearby St Petersberg mountain. If I may say so myself, those are 🆒 Other possibilities include: [ul] [li]a day trip to Spa (yes, the original Spa, famous for its hot springs and therapeutic baths); [/li][li]shopping; [/li][li]the - legal ! - marijuana-shops, for those who like them;[/li][li]of course our cafe’s and restaurants and above all:[/li][li]Doper company ![/li][/ul] **Where to stay** I’ve let guests stay before in one of Maastrichts many [bed-and breakfasthouses.](http://www.vvvmaastricht.nl) They’re usually located within walking distance of the old city centre, in beautiful old houses, and a lot cheaper then hotels. Some have parking. A single room in a B&B will cost 30-50 euro’s per night; a double room 40-60 euro’s. I’d be happy to assist with making reservations. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/2 "2004-11-16T21:41:27Z")
Unless I win the lottery or something, I couldn’t get there, but I’d very much like to. Maybe next year… :: **Sunspace** looks wishfully at the eastern horizon :: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/3 "2004-11-16T22:27:50Z")
Doggone it **Maastricht** , I’d love to be there, but I’m going to be back in the US for the holidays! And I’m in India for mid-December. Sure you couldn’t postpone it to sometime after 12 January?.. [/wistful] I **would** like to go to a NetherDope. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/4 "2004-11-17T20:01:28Z")
Hi Maastricht! Wouldn’t have seen this if you hadn’t linked to it; I don’t visit the dope as diligently as I used to. I’m not sure whether your timeframe is really conducive for high participation. Like most people, I have other obligations on several days. I would prefer a different date some weeks later. Other than that, Maastricht is a beautiful city. For getting higher respons you might also want to change the title. Now people might think you have a dope only at your place instead of in The Netherlands. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/5 "2004-11-17T20:04:19Z")
[I know your type.](http://www.niwi.knaw.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1243989/)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/6 "2004-11-18T05:35:35Z")
**Tusculan** , excellent idea. I’ve emailed a Mod to change the title to DutchDope. A DutchDope sometime in January or February would be fine with me, as well. Actually, we might postpone it to the [www.cobweb.nl/teikyo/maher.htm+Maastricht+Carnaval+color&hl=nl]Maastricht]([http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Igmo1zlFQ-wJ:](http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Igmo1zlFQ-wJ:)[url) Mardi Gras, which can best be described as the whole town and citinzenry exploding in color, going berserk in fancy costumes and being drunk and merry on the streets for three days. What dates are you and **Kimstu** thinking of? **Lieu** , your link doesn’t cone trough 😕 And where is **gum**? **Kimstu** , you and (s)he ARE still on speaking terms, no? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/7 "2004-11-18T05:41:04Z")
Ahem; quote from the link: > [@](#): > > During Carnaval, Maastricht virtually shuts down except for the pubs, coffee shops, disco’s and a few restaurants. The shops along the cobblestone roads board up their windows to prevent any damage to the property. Every pub, disco and coffee shop in town is decorated with streamers, balloons, and confetti of every color you can imagine. Everywhere you go, you can hear the sounds of old Dutch-style music which for the duration of the celebration is called Carnaval music. People of all ages flood the streets in costumes that range from Halloween-like costumes (witches, mummies, devils, etc.) to the more traditional Carnaval look with people walking around on stilts, dressed up as clowns and juggling jesters. Many people spend a lot of time and money on these costumes and look as if their owners spent all year preparing them for this three-day event. Other costumes, including mine, however, looked as if they took two minutes to whip up and were thrown together just so their wearers would fit into the crowd. > > The first day of Carnaval, thousands of people dressed in their costumes to gather along the streets of Maastricht to enjoy the parade of floats and marching bands. Both children and adults were left in awe as the parade passed through the streets. As evening approached, fewer children were out and adults seemed to be getting drunker, taking advantage of this festive time of the year. > > The majority of the pubs closed at two in the morning. That, however, didn’t mean that dedicated partyers went home until hours later. People gathered around fires in the street continuing to drink and be festive. A few pubs opened at 2 a.m. and closed at 5 a.m. There was even a bar that opened at five o’clock in the morning that was continually packed with dedicated beer drinkers! As I awoke to the sun coming over the horizon, I was aware that day two of Carnaval began. The town square had some kind of event happening all day long. Bands played and people had dance contests. Prizes for the best costumes where awarded. Children set off fireworks and shot cap guns at each other. It seemed as if there was never a dull moment. The night life was much the same as the first night. Everybody seemed to be in the same costumes, with their faces all decorated with paint. The celebration continued at a strong pace as the people began to get more and more festive. ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/8 "2004-11-18T10:11:52Z")
Thank you for trying to organise this. I would like to come. I loved PragueDope and its only a 90 minute drive from here to Maastricht. But we’ve got our own Karneval here and I wouldn’t want to miss that. The same is possibly true for other German and Dutch dopers. Sorry that your ideas keep getting shot down, but please consider another date. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/9 "2004-11-18T10:39:35Z")
Sounds like a positively awesome time, but I’m already going to Israel and South America this year and can’t scrunge up any more travel money. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/10 "2004-11-18T14:41:32Z")
Aaah, bummer. It was “Project: Sedimentary and diagenetic cycles in the type section of the Maastrichtian as a function of astronomically induced oceanographic changes.” ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/11 "2004-11-18T21:30:29Z")
**Maastricht** , honey, I’d give my right kidney to be there, but I can’t. ☹ I haven’t been well [physically, I mean 😃] for some time and it looks like it’s incurable. I’d really love to see you guys and celebrate Carnaval again. When a date and place is set, I’ll send something over, so you can have a drink on me. Because I know: During Carnaval you can get nothing to drink around there. hehehe. 😉 Seriously; Dopers: Grab this chance! Maastricht is a lovely city [and Doper] and Carnaval an awesome fest. [if you can stand partying until late] If not: The province Drente is only a two hour ride and is nice and quiet. Or visit Friesland - that’ll be 3 hours - maybe, by that time, it’s freezing and you can see those weird Dutchies do the 11 cities skating tour. Amsterdam is nice too. hehehe. **Maastricht** , you go, girl. Have a great party. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/12 "2004-11-18T22:31:44Z")
I’d love to be there, but won’t be able to make it this year. January or February on the other hand are possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/13 "2004-11-19T23:16:53Z")
**gum** , I’m sorry to hear you’re not well. In the unlikely case we DO manage to get hold of a beer, we’ll raise it in your general direction, up north. 🙂 Well guys, another try. Carnaval is three days after Saturday Februari 5th. Unless more carnaval-curious Dopers turn up, how about having the dopefest one or two weekends before? The air in the city will already be crackling with carnaval. Decorations, people dressed up and forming crazy musicbands in the streets. Last year, I had to explain a whole drum band of majorettes (guys in drag) to an eldery Japanese tourist couple. But two weeks or even one week before carnaval, the cafe’s are not yet insanely crowded and all the B&B’s still have room. So, who could make it on the weekend of 22-23 January, and who on 29-30 January? **Angua** , you’d fly in from London? Cool! There’s a direct connection to Maastricht-Aachen Airport from Stansted. From the airport to the city center is 20 minutes by bus. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/14 "2004-11-20T09:26:24Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > **Angua** , you’d fly in from London? Cool! There’s a direct connection to Maastricht-Aachen Airport from Stansted. From the airport to the city center is 20 minutes by bus. I’d certainly try. It’d also depend on what the SO wants to do… ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/15 "2004-11-20T13:29:59Z")
**Angua** , S.O.'s are most welcome. Well, let’s see if, as I hope, \*\*swannguy, PookahMacPhellimey, Mycroft Holmes, Coldfire, Heloise, Dragon Phoenix, SkinnyGuy, Aghris, Tatertot, kase, daffodil, \*\* and **fab** do vanity searches. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/16 "2004-11-21T20:08:43Z")
**mkl12** , could you give me a hand in naming the Dopers currently residing in Germany, to grab their attention? Right now, I can only think of **Robot Arm** and **Optihut** in Aachen. And since so far we have a lot of female Dopers interested, let me add that the Dopefest will coincide with the big winterclear-out sales. Also, I’m partly into the alternative Maastricht scene. Depending on the date, I could take the Dopers who like that kind of thing to an alternative party in an deserted factorybuilding on the riverfront, inhabited by squatting artists. My dad lives there, and is currently building fireplaces (it’s a long story, but a wonderful place). ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/17 "2004-11-21T20:46:39Z")
Seeing as we’re not talking about Christmas anymore, maybe it should just become a general call for a Netherdope or Eurodope in Maastricht? (title change doesn’t seem to come along quickly) I recall **clairobscur** (an excellent French Doper) mentioning he was sorry he couldn’t make PragueDope. Are there other names in the PragueDope thread? **Angua** ’s SO is a Doper, too (Bonzer). For what it’s worth, the two weekends you mentioned would at present still work for me. Alternative party sounds cool, too. I don’t know what’s happened with the other local Dopers. By the way, did you notice someone called \*\*Vreemdeling[b/] suddenly posting? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/18 "2004-11-21T22:56:20Z")
Another good idea, **T**! In the Praguethread **Quasimodem** said he’d be in the neighbourhood, and interested in an EuroDope. So did **nocturnal\_tick** , **Globe-trotter, Chairman Pow, Suburban Plankton, Einmon, pulykamel, Quartz, Eva Luna** , and **Priceguy** I’ve alerted \*\*curly chick \*\* and **kferr** , over at the LondonDope thread, and our new stranger ( **Vreemdeling** ) over the thread on get-rich-quick-schemes. I had **Wolfstu** as a guest a month ago, to practice upon. 🙂 I don’t think I can tempt **clairobscur** with the Maastricht clear-out though, her being a Parissienne and all that 😉 . ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/19 "2004-11-23T19:52:58Z")
As **Maastricht** mentioned, I visited Maastricht a few weeks ago; I quite enjoyed it. The city has a wonderful character… to a North American raised on stories of castles and sieges and walled cities, it fills all the expectations of “Europe”. Not overcrushingly modern like a big city, nor so small it can be seen in an afternoon. The whole town is just plain old pretty. Not grand and expensive like Paris or Berlin, but the kind of pretty that comes from centuries of organic growth and cultural close-knittedness, with hills and rivers and thousand-year-old architecture as a medium. I had a [whole lot to write about it](http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfstu/136283.html?mode=reply) when I got back home (scroll down to the “Sunday” section)… here are some excerpts: > [@](#): > > Maastricht, named for its place on the Maas river, is in a piece of the Netherlands that sticks down between Germany and Belgium, right near where Flanders meets Wallonia - it’s a a linguistic and cultural four-corners. This is some of the historically most contested real estate in Europe. As a result, Maastricht was, by the mid-nineteenth century when technological advancements made city walls irrelevant, the most heavily fortified city on the continent. There were three rings of city walls, built successively as the city expanded. Much of this remains, partly because the inner walls had been encorporated into the structures of houses and other buildings. I passed parts of these walls - with houses built onto them and automobiles parked beside them - that were nearly a thousand years old. > > The outer system of walls, perhaps the most impressive, are underlain by several levels of storage, firing positions, and monitoring tunnels. A ‘dry moat’ exists in the higher parts of land where water was scarce, which is a large trench dug beyond the walls. > > The inner city, crowded by its contraint within the walls, grew into a tight grid of buildings tall and narrow - in one alley, I came within a few millimetres of being able to touch both sides. A city besieged every several years needed gardens to grow food, and big attics on top of the houses to store it. Space was limited; the old city hall is thus eight stories tall, and even branches of the river were overdecked and built upon. This city is full of centuries-old buildings still occupied as ordinary houses. It has a complete church from ~1100 CE and another with portions of its structure dating from about the year 300. > > There seem to be innumerable beautiful little spots with a character of their own. Oh, and I [visited Spa](http://www.livejournal.com/users/wolfstu/122443.html?mode=reply). It was cool. (No responses from me for a while - I’m in an internet cafe in Paris and won’t have acess again for several days.) ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128/20 "2004-11-23T21:07:52Z")
I’d be up for it, whatever you want to call it and whenever you want to hold it. The Dopefests we have here in the UK are pretty darned good, so I can imagine meeting some of the other Euro-Dopers would be cool. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caves-citywalls-and-damn-good-beer-too-dutchdope-january-22-23-anyone/275128.md?page=2)