# CBS 60 Minutes --- Iraq War Planned Pre-9/11?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 11, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897 "2004-01-11T00:57:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/41 "2004-01-12T06:45:40Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by elucidator \*
> So far, no such denials have been forthcoming, I suspect they’re waiting until after _60 Minutes_ airs. My guess: they’ll go for a carefully worded non-denial, the kind of thing that ignores the question and answers a question not asked, something along the lines of “The White House regrets that a once trusted and respected adviser has gone off the deep end…” They probably won’t actually _directly_ deny the substance of O’Neills charges, they’ll just issue a statement much like that, and pretend that dignity compels them to make no further comment.
Nah, Bush can now shut up those critics who say he went to war with no plan for the post-war rebuilding process…
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/42 "2004-01-12T06:53:48Z")
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> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> \*\*Nah, Bush can now shut up those critics who say he went to war with no plan for the post-war rebuilding process… \*\*
😃
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/43 "2004-01-12T08:20:06Z")
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> \*Originally posted by xtisme \*
> I don’t see where the traction would have come from without 9/11 to push the American people into going along. How would they have gotten the support of Congress without something like 9/11 happening? How would they have gotten the people on board?? Even WITH such an event, look at the opposition from the people. Imagine if they had of tried such a thing cold…‘lets just invade Iraq’! I’m sure that would have gone over well.
Whether Bush could have sold an invasion without 9/11 occurring is beside the point. O’Neill said that Bush _wanted_ to invade Iraq since day one, and that Bush asked his administration to come up with a way to make it happen. 9/11 obviously made it easier for him, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he _didn’t_ want to do it before 9/11. Knowing Bush, I really don’t have a hard time believing it.
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/44 "2004-01-12T08:37:10Z")
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> \*Originally posted by sibyl \*
> \*\*There are quite a few conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 and from what I’ve seen much of Europe believes them. I’ve talked to a few friends I have in France and Germany and they are fairly certain there was something shady going on with 9/11, more than we’ve been told. Could be just a couple cases but they are fairly well read and don’t just make snap judgements.
>
> As far as the validity of those claims, I’ve seen some convincing arguments and some very unconvincing arguments. Unfortunately investigating any of these is pretty taboo as of right now. \*\*
Just to be clear, O’Neill did not suggest any kind of conspiracy regarding 9/11. Seems pretty unlikely to me - if Bush were trying to justify attacking Saddam, it wouldn’t make much sense to engineer a terrorist incident and blame it on _bin Laden_.
By the way, I’m noticing that, even though it was pointed out early in the thread that O’Neill was NOT talking about a contingency plan, but rather an actual desire by Bush to invade Iraq, several of you are _still_ suggesting otherwise. Please stop saying that; it’s incorrect. If you think O’Neill is a liar, and invented the story out of whole cloth, that’s one thing, but don’t say he was talking about a contigency plan when he wasn’t.
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### Author:  [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/45 "2004-01-12T09:07:26Z")
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> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> \*\*Nah, Bush can now shut up those critics who say he went to war with no plan for the post-war rebuilding process… \*\*
Thats what I thought when I read that part. Though I do think they did have a plan for the post war rebuilding process. It just was one that they had to scrap the moment they realised that installing Chalabi as the new dictator was a bad idea.
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### Author:  [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/46 "2004-01-12T12:47:05Z")
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> \*Originally posted by elucidator \*
> \*\ ***John** has a point. The simple unadorned facts are sufficiently damning. When the campaigning GeeDubya stated his opposition to military adventures in “nation building”, he was most likely lying through his teeth. Similarly when he assured us that he hadn’t made up his mind and was sincerely pursuing any chance of peace. Also, it would seem, bald faced lies.
>
> Your point is well taken. We don’t need “spin”. We have the facts, they can keep the spin. Speaking for proud and patriotic Bush Bashers everywhere, we are pleased to have your support. \*\*
You haven’t earned my support quite yet. That Bush has much to be bashed for is a given.
YOUR job is to indentify and put forth a reasonable opposition candidate in the next election. So far it ain’t lookin’ too good.
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/47 "2004-01-12T13:01:05Z")
Yeah, **luci**. Try and find an opposition candidate who hasn’t lied about the need for war, who hasn’t caused needless deaths of US servicemen, who hasn’t pissed away a coupla hundred billion of taxpayers funds, who hasn’t lined the pockets of campaign contributors, who hasn’t been caught lying about using cluster bombs on civilians. Go on, I _dare_ you.
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/48 "2004-01-12T13:23:14Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*
> \*\*
>
> Here’s the “so what,” dude. It means that Bush intended from day one to stage an illegal, non-defensive invasion of another country to gain control of its oil. It means that this was a politically motivated act from the beginning. It means that all the talk about WMDs and imminent threats were manipulative lies intended to exploit the tragedy of 9/11 for personal gain.
> \*\*
You should write for one of the new Indymedia splinter cells. What personal gain are we talking about?
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### Author:  [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/49 "2004-01-12T13:46:33Z")
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> Paul O’Neill’s claims are just more "I told you so"s for all us skeptics out here.
Exactly so. Yet as such eyewitness testimony begins to accumulate, I believe it’s only a matter of time before we all discover that the 9/11 attacks were allowed to “slip through” in order to help advance the prior agenda of the Bush administration. I was excoriated for saying so at the time but so far there’s been nothing that proves I’m wrong.
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/50 "2004-01-12T14:07:11Z")
**RTA** I’d like to prophesise that when it eventually does come out to the extent that most of the people who will not accept that the war was based on lies change their minds they will just come up with something along the lines of “Hey, it’s all history now. Get over it” :mad:
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### Author:  [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/51 "2004-01-12T14:26:41Z")
I don’t believe that the revelations are going to have much apprecialbe effect - those of us who loath Bush with the heat of a thousand suns can’t dislike him any more than we already do, and those that support him aren’t about to change their opinion of him as a result of the story.
A few weeks ago a OP/ED piece appeared in the local paper that discussed just how polarizing Bush is and how the term “hate” keeps popping up in discussions of him - and how that is a new development in American political discourse. No one seems to have a lukewarm opinion of him - he’s either the greatest thing since sliced bread, or he’s something you have to scrap off the bottom of your shoe.
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### Author:  [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/52 "2004-01-12T14:38:45Z")
I don’t think it’s a new development. Sounds like FDR actually.
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \*
> \*\*Planning _how_ to do something, _if_ it comes to that, is a completely different issue from deciding _to_ do it. \*\*
Never said it was the same. I think the question of whether to remove SH by force has been around for a while though, so the decision to do so is not very surprising.
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### Author:  [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/53 "2004-01-12T15:46:41Z")
Uhm…I’m a Democrat who doesn’t _hate_ Bush. I think he’s done a few good things and a lot of bad ones, but I understand where he’s coming from and I think he’s made a lot of bad mistakes out of ignorance, not malice or evil. I guess I’m all alone.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/54 "2004-01-12T22:18:07Z")
> [@Sterra](#):
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> Thats what I thought when I read that part. Though I do think they did have a plan for the post war rebuilding process. It just was one that they had to scrap the moment they realised that installing Chalabi as the new dictator was a bad idea.
Sorry if I mislead you about the sense of my post. \*\*DtC \*\* got it right.
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/55 "2004-01-12T22:29:37Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#):
>
> Uhm…I’m a Democrat who doesn’t _hate_ Bush. I think he’s done a few good things and a lot of bad ones, but I understand where he’s coming from and I think he’s made a lot of bad mistakes out of ignorance, not malice or evil. I guess I’m all alone.
I don’t think Bush is _trying_ to hurt the country; I have no doubt that in his heart, he thinks he’s doing the right thing. He’s just incredibly stupid and foolish.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/56 "2004-01-12T23:28:41Z")
My four-year-old thinks he’s improving our home when he hammers at the walls with his toys, but that doesn’t mean I let him carry on…
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/57 "2004-01-13T15:37:29Z")
> [@plnnr](#):
>
> I don’t believe that the revelations are going to have much apprecialbe effect - those of us who loath Bush with the heat of a thousand suns can’t dislike him any more than we already do, and those that support him aren’t about to change their opinion of him as a result of the story.
No, actually, this is a HUGE boost for those who feel that Bush is a lying warmonger. The struggle in politics is never for the committed, it’s always for those who are in the middle. This is a powerful proof that Bush liked about WMD in Iraq because it was simply a pretext for a war he already planned to instigate. Reasonable people are going to have a much harder time accepting Bush defender’s lies and prevarications now. This helps move the center away from Bush and toward Goodness.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/58 "2004-01-13T17:32:47Z")
Would that I could agree. Doesn’t look that way. At this point in time, about the only people who could be “undecided” about the Glorious Liberation are those who simply haven’t been paying attention. It has long since become entirely obvious that the justifications for the invasion were a crock, even here, the Usual Suspects only make passing efforts in that regard. We are left with the argument that it doesn’t matter that they lied, because they are the Good Guys, and Good Guys get a pass when it comes to truth.
You can just barely hear the ancient echoes, still shrill with porcine rage, “He LIED to the American people! He LIED to the American people!” Of course, that was different. That was about the Presidential Winky, not trivial concerns like blood, death and pain.
"“The stated policy of my administration toward Saddam Hussein was very clear – like the previous administration, we were for regime change,”
See? It was Clinton’s fault! Oh, September 11! September 11!
"Bush “exhausted all possible means to resolve the situation in Iraq peacefully” before launching the invasion in March, McClellan said. Saddam defied a “final opportunity to comply” with U.N. demands to disarm, prompting Bush to take action “in the aftermath of Sept. 11th (because) it’s important to confront threats before it’s too late.”
(Quotes from [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/156352\_bushsummit13.html](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/156352_bushsummit13.html))
He “exhausted all possible means”? Is there anybody here dumb enough to buy that? Anybody? In light of the revelations about peace overtures from Saddam that amounted to virtual surrender of every point of “contention”?
And “confront threats before it’s too late”. Excuse me, Prime Whore McClellan, what “threats”? Saddams military machine was a shadow of a ghost of a military threat. Saddam had no weapons remotely capable of presenting a “threat” to America. How was he going to threaten America? Voodoo rites in the Presidential Palace? Does he mean that it is important to confront threats before they even exist, on the presumption that they _will_ exist?
No, I don’t see many people changing their minds due to this revelation, its stuff we already pretty much knew. The people who didn’t care last week don’t care today. And if there is a sadder commentary on the state of the Republic, I’m at a loss as to what it might be.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/59 "2004-01-13T17:48:51Z")
**’luci** got it right this time. (I guess the blind squirrel story has some truth to it afterall.:))
Of course, we can throw out conjecture all day long and it’s not worth a hill of beans. We might be able to tease some meaning from the poll numbers, but even that might be difficult. In particular, I like to look at [this poll by the Pew Research Center](http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm):
> [@](#):
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> Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Dec. 19, 2003-Jan. 4, 2004. N=1,506 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
> .
> “Do you think the U.S. made the right decision or the wrong decision in using military force against Iraq?”
But even those results jump around quite a bit if you look at trend over time. The “wrong” column has been in the upper 20s/lower 30s for about six months now, so if we suddenly saw this jump to upper 30s or lower 40s the next time it is measured, I suppose that would be significant. Let’s see if we get an update next week.
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### Author:  [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)
#### Post date: [January 13, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-60-minutes-iraq-war-planned-pre-9-11/223897/60 "2004-01-13T18:18:50Z")
What got me was this: it was at the top of the agenda at the first cabinet meeting. Which means it had a higher priority than even his beloved tax cuts.
> [@](#):
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> O’Neill said Tuesday he did not mean to imply that the administration was wrong to begin contingency planning for a regime change in Iraq but that he was surprised that it was at the **top of the agenda at the first Cabinet meeting.**
From [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3925358/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3925358/)
It don’t get any more damning than that.
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