# CBS and TWC have drawn their lines in the sand. Who's going to blink first? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422 "2013-07-24T21:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/21 "2013-08-04T09:12:36Z")
I just wanted to highlight the fact that if you’re doing this for the first time, as I did when helping a friend go cable-free, you do need an antenna designed to optimize reception of the relevant frequencies _in addition to_ the appropriate type of tuner. The situation was a garden-style apartment that already had a hole drilled through the wall for coax. So we mounted a very small antenna on the back deck and ran the coax. That went into a tuner which then went into one of the components. It kinda sucked because the way the NYC station antennae were oriented in relation to his apartment, there was one channel we couldn’t really get clearly without either putting the antenna someplace awkward or getting one that was bigger than he was comfortable with - something I really didn’t understand since so many tenants had sat dishes, but it was his call. edit: oops, sorry. my response was to your pre-edit. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/22 "2013-08-04T09:17:58Z")
VHF vs. UHF is not analog vs. digital. A UHF antenna is best for UHF and a VHF antenna is best for VHF. That was true before the change and it’s true after. _Most_ stations switched to UHF, but I believe VHF stations still exist, so if “digital antenna” is being used to mean “UHF antenna,” some people are going to be disappointed. The only thing digital (which is not the same as HD) has to do with the antenna is that digital has a sharper cutoff from a clear signal to no signal, so you may need a different antenna than what you would need to watch an equivalent analog signal. Needing a new antenna because of the switch does not mean that your old antenna wasn’t a “digital antenna” (whatever that would be). Comparing “HDTV antennas” to other antennas is fruitless as the defining characteristic of an “HDTV antenna” is a label applied by the person selling it. You can call your couch an HDTV couch and it says just as much about how it works. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/23 "2013-08-04T09:20:39Z")
Ummm, yes. I do understand all that as I just told you I did an installation so I had to research all of this. Not to be snarky, but did you read some post other than what I wrote? ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/24 "2013-08-04T09:32:13Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Well CBS is dark in New York City right now. And two years ago Cablevision and ABC had the same thing happen and they went off the air for a few days, including the night of the Academy Awards telecast. > > I’m sure they’ll be back soon, but until then I’m just going to download the shows I want to see online. If you live in New York, Boston, or Atlanta, you can use [Aereo](https://aereo.com/) to record TV stations off the air and stream them over the internet. This can help for shows that aren’t available on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/25 "2013-08-04T12:39:48Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > I think cable companies (and anybody else) should have the right to redistribute any broadcast television or radio signal within the local market. CBS chooses to run television stations that send out programming for free. IMO that’s a waiver of their right to collect subscription fees from people who watch it, even if the viewers choose to pay someone else to collect the signal centrally rather than put up their own personal antennas. The current rules are covered [here](http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cable-carriage-broadcast-stations). The local broadcaster has two options: 1. They can can force local cable companies to carry their channels (“must carry”), but they can’t charge the cable company fees. 2. They can charge a fee, but then the cable company can decide not to carry it. In other words, it pretty much ensures that this stand-off situation occurs. Cable company: “How about we pay you … nothing?” TV station: “How about we don’t let you carry our channel?” “Fine.” “But the local viewers expect you to carry us. You _have_ to.” “So you are forcing us to carry you? Sweet.” “No, not forcing you at all.” Etc. Oddly, there’s a recent [ruling](https://copyrightalliance.org/2013/04/wnet_v_aereo_split_appellate_panel_rules_remote-storage_dvr_decision_insulates_provider) okaying Aero where the company is recording, saving and later streaming local channels to people in certain markets (for a fee of course). Sort of a DVR like scheme. No fees or permissions required from the broadcaster. I wonder what the distinction is between a cable company and Aero in this regard? Apparently a key part is that each customer is fed a _different_ copy of each program they have requested. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/26 "2013-08-04T13:04:33Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Apparently a key part is that each customer is fed a _different_ copy of each program they have requested. Not only fed a different copy, but assigned a different antenna. They put up an enormous bank of micro-antennas near the transmission sites. Each customer “rents” their own antenna for as long as it takes to record the requested show and has their own copy of the show. If there are a hundred different customers who want to record the evening news on channel 3, they will assign a hundred different antennas to tune to channel 3 when the evening news is on. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/27 "2013-08-04T14:21:02Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Ummm, yes. I do understand all that as I just told you I did an installation so I had to research all of this. Not to be snarky, but did you read some post other than what I wrote? This is a message board. Why assume the comment was meant for you? And, anyways, UHF antennas have existed for a while, and you wouldn’t get a full set of channels unless you had one. (Around here, ABC, Fox, and one PBS station were all UHF.) I can’t imagine having just a VHF antenna. Every antenna I’ve ever had could handle both–even the small rabbit ears. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/28 "2013-08-04T14:29:02Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > VHF vs. UHF is not analog vs. digital. A UHF antenna is best for UHF and a VHF antenna is best for VHF. That was true before the change and it’s true after. _Most_ stations switched to UHF, but I believe VHF stations still exist, so if “digital antenna” is being used to mean “UHF antenna,” some people are going to be disappointed. The only thing digital (which is not the same as HD) has to do with the antenna is that digital has a sharper cutoff from a clear signal to no signal, so you may need a different antenna than what you would need to watch an equivalent analog signal. Needing a new antenna because of the switch does not mean that your old antenna wasn’t a “digital antenna” (whatever that would be). > > Comparing “HDTV antennas” to other antennas is fruitless as the defining characteristic of an “HDTV antenna” is a label applied by the person selling it. You can call your couch an HDTV couch and it says just as much about how it works. I understand what you are saying, but I have a related question. I have an old VHF/UHF analog antenna on a tall tower, connected to the house by coax, and there is a powered RF amplifier at the end. The system hasn’t been used for many years, since cable came in. Just for kicks, if I wanted to reconnect it to a digital TV, would the RF amp work? It’s amplifying the analog signal, of course, and I’m in a fringe area, so I need some kind of boost. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/29 "2013-08-04T15:03:43Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I understand what you are saying, but I have a related question. I have an old VHF/UHF analog antenna on a tall tower, connected to the house by coax, and there is a powered RF amplifier at the end. The system hasn’t been used for many years, since cable came in. Just for kicks, if I wanted to reconnect it to a digital TV, would the RF amp work? It’s amplifying the analog signal, of course, and I’m in a fringe area, so I need some kind of boost. If you are asking whether you need some sort of special digital amplifier, the answer is no. During the digital transition, a lot of stations changed frequencies and power levels and some even moved the locations of their transmitters. All these factors might affect whether you can still receive their signal. But if you can’t receive their signal it is not because you need some mythical digital or HD antenna or because you need some kind of special amplifier designed just for digital TV. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/30 "2013-08-04T15:04:47Z")
using antennas is an all depends type of thing, even for people in close proximity to each other. in the USA few high power stations remained on VHF LO (channels 2 to 6) though they still may identify with those numbers and your tv/tuner will still tune to those numbers (a virtual channel). many high powered stations remained on VHF HI (channels 7 to 13). during the transition from analog to digital, stations were moved temporarily to UHF channels (13 to 69) and many stayed there which is now UHF (13 to 51). to find out the real channel numbers you want (and what you want your antenna to work for) go to [http://www.tvfool.com/](http://www.tvfool.com/) on the left ‘Check Your Address for Free TV’ you can enter your address or zip or coordinates and get a chart of your exact situation. address or coordinates are most exact results. if you had a strong signal a paper clip would act as an antenna on any channel. you could live in a valley, with a mountain between you and the station and get a better signal by aiming your antenna at the mountain behind you. a big city with tall buildings has lots of man made mountains and valleys. you need to adjust antenna height and direction considering reflections of the signal (which can be caused by walls of your building as well). if cable drops a channel you could attempt to get that channel over the air (which could be a better picture because it is digital if your cable is analog or compressed). you would use your tv input selection to go between the broadcast input or the cable input (this will vary on your set on how you would do this) or use a switch between the antenna or cable before it goes into your set. i have hooked up antennas for people with cable tv who get a good broadcast signal. the antenna will often be a better picture (you can see blades of grass and nose hairs). ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/31 "2013-08-04T15:15:53Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I understand what you are saying, but I have a related question. I have an old VHF/UHF analog antenna on a tall tower, connected to the house by coax, and there is a powered RF amplifier at the end. The system hasn’t been used for many years, since cable came in. Just for kicks, if I wanted to reconnect it to a digital TV, would the RF amp work? It’s amplifying the analog signal, of course, and I’m in a fringe area, so I need some kind of boost. the signal will be amplified the same. try it and see what happens. with a digital signal if the signal is too strong it will look to a tv set very similar to too weak of a signal. so you need some information on your expected signal strength to help figure if you are too weak or too strong if you don’t get a good picture. with old coax on the antenna you might give the connector ends a light sanding, if you have a bad picture, (with sand paper or emery cloth) if the metal is dull. ---
**Author:** ![Labdriver101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ab097/32.png) [@Labdriver101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdriver101)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/32 "2013-08-04T15:42:22Z")
Let them fight, I believe that now is the time to restart the user group. If we could amass a big enough chunk of users we could not only make them bend to OUR demands we could also get better rates. ---
**Author:** ![Labdriver101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ab097/32.png) [@Labdriver101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdriver101)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/33 "2013-08-04T15:45:16Z")
Yep, it should work all the same ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/34 "2013-08-04T16:20:53Z")
[CBS.com](http://CBS.com) won’t let people who get internet through Time Warner watch their shows on their website either. Yay for torrents. CBS was the top rated network last year, wouldn’t cutting off New York City & Los Angeles take away a lot of their viewership? Though the new fall shows don’t start til the end of Sept, you know they’ll want ratings for those. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/35 "2013-08-04T16:26:18Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > If you are asking whether you need some sort of special digital amplifier, the answer is no. I’m not, and you didn’t read my post very carefully. > [@johnpost](#): > > the signal will be amplified the same. Ah! Someone who _did_ read my post. Thanks. I might give it a try just for shits & giggles. > [@Labdriver101](#): > > Yep, it should work all the same Another poster who can read! Also thanks. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/36 "2013-08-04T16:33:49Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I understand what you are saying, but I have a related question. I have an old VHF/UHF analog antenna on a tall tower, connected to the house by coax, and there is a powered RF amplifier at the end. The system hasn’t been used for many years, since cable came in. Just for kicks, if I wanted to reconnect it to a digital TV, would the RF amp work? It’s amplifying the analog signal, of course, and I’m in a fringe area, so I need some kind of boost. For the installation I helped my friend with, I’m pretty sure we used a signal amp and IIRC it did help. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/37 "2013-08-04T17:02:06Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > For the installation I helped my friend with, I’m pretty sure we used a signal amp and IIRC it did help. The RF amp I have is 30 years old (no, it doesn’t use tubes!). It was installed when I put an antenna at the top of a tall pine tree. When cable came in ca. 1994, I unplugged the amp, but left the in-house coax wiring intact, just not connected. One good thing about using a pine tree as an antenna support over a metal tower is that it keeps getting higher every year! I tried powering up the RF amp and connecting my digital TV to the antenna through it. Scanning for available channels, I was surprised to find about 15 (that may be more than I got in the analog era). All come in with adequate signals, and most include “-HD” in their channel names. So the SDMB posters who said the analog RF amp would work are correct. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/38 "2013-08-04T17:12:57Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > One good thing about using a pine tree as an antenna support over a metal tower is that it keeps getting higher every year! > > I tried powering up the RF amp and connecting my digital TV to the antenna through it. Scanning for available channels, I was surprised to find about 15 (that may be more than I got in the analog era). All come in with adequate signals, and most include “-HD” in their channel names. So the SDMB posters who said the analog RF amp would work are correct. the coax keeps getting shorter every year. the antenna not being held more rigid, like on a mast, might give less quality signal on windy days. some tv stations give 2 or 3 channels on a single real channel number. in the end you might end up with twice the number of channels. one station would likely give a weather channel, which is good to have locally. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/39 "2013-08-04T17:26:59Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > the coax keeps getting shorter every year. the antenna not being held more rigid, like on a mast, might give less quality signal on windy days. Could be. I keep watching the coax to make sure it doesn’t snap, but so far, I guess the tree doesn’t grow very fast and there was enough slack when first installed. > [@](#): > > some tv stations give 2 or 3 channels on a single real channel number. in the end you might end up with twice the number of channels. one station would likely give a weather channel, which is good to have locally. The channel numbers show as 02-1, 02-2, 02-3, 05-1,11-1, etc. along with the station call letters, pretty much the same way as they display when connected to cable (but the numbers may be different). ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422/40 "2013-08-05T01:11:57Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Seems this happens every year (at least around my area) and nothing ever comes of it. I mean, I’m sure someone pays someone more money or less money or something, but from my end, it’s just a bunch of commercials on TV and the radio and some newspaper ads and then something on TV saying that they settled it and there will be no disruption in service (which they said a few days ago, at least for the Milwaukee area). > This happens every. single. year. for one network or another and I’ve never seen one of my channels go dark. I guess I spoke too soon. I DO have CBS, but they yanked Showtime. I just went to turn on Dexter and I have [this screen](http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f44/JoeyJoeyPP/IMG_20130804_200945_zps1f441159.jpg). So, no Dexter and no Ray Donavon. Well, sort of. I’m pretty sure they’ll be on [Showtime.com](http://Showtime.com) later on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cbs-and-twc-have-drawn-their-lines-in-the-sand-whos-going-to-blink-first/664422.md?page=3)