# CE and BCE **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009 "2014-02-10T22:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/41 "2014-02-11T14:51:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Common is a lackluster descriptor that means bupkis and has no context other than “right now”. Well, it’s “common” because it’s used across multiple cultures, some of which have alternate year systems, like Chinese and Jewish people. It’s the only numbering system which is \*\*common \*\*to all (most?) peoples on Earth regardless of local tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/42 "2014-02-11T15:38:38Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > hurr durr xians r teh retardz IAN **John Mace** and have no authority to speak for him, but what I thought he was saying is just that Christians would be “deluded” if they believed that the abbreviation “CE” actually stood for “Christian Era”. Because in fact its official referent is “Common Era”. _This message has not been approved by **John Mace** _. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/43 "2014-02-11T15:40:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > IAN **John Mace** and have no authority to speak for him, but what I thought he was saying is just that Christians would be “deluded” if they believed that the abbreviation “CE” actually stood for “Christian Era”. Because in fact its official referent is “Common Era”. > > _This message has not been approved by **John Mace** _. Yes it has! Oh, and **Malacandra** : You’ll be hard pressed to find a more religion-friendly atheist on this MB than yours truly. I’ve defended religious people more times than I can count. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/44 "2014-02-11T15:43:21Z")
I thought he was saying non-Christians were deluded if they thought CE/BCE were more inclusive descriptors. 'Cause they are. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/45 "2014-02-11T15:56:26Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Well, it’s “common” because it’s used across multiple cultures, some of which have alternate year systems, like Chinese and Jewish people. It’s the only numbering system which is \*\*common \*\*to all (most?) peoples on Earth regardless of local tradition. Only due to the present use of european/american culture as dominant fashion. 500 years and other systems may be predominant, or none if different peoples prefer local systems as they had in the past. Just as they will probably wear different clothes to today, or have very different values ( killing surplus infants appears to have been common everywhere: no reason to think that present abhorrence is automatically set in stone ). 2014 is 2767 _Ab urbe condita_. No-one gets bent whether the first stone was laid in 753 BC or dated from the completion of the walls, or whether the year chosen as the first year was 30 years +/-; just that there is a coherent accepted first date. I’ve no objection to a new dating system for those who want one, just to keeping the same one and giving it a gloss catering to those who wish there is not a religious component when there is one. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/46 "2014-02-11T16:17:11Z")
Personally, I’ve never been a fan of the use of CE/BCE instead of AD/BC. The reason being that because it exactly coincides, so it brings nothing new to the table while intending to sort of ignore that it has it’s basis in Christian tradition. If anything, I think it creates new problems because the whole idea that AD became the common era is because Christianity has been the dominant religion in the Western world for such a long time. I don’t see how acknowledging that the dating system has those roots in any way condones or condemns the teachings of Christianity than, say, using the names of the days of the week has any real-world relevance to their roots in paganism. I don’t take any offense at it, and I’m not confused by it, it just seems unnecessary. I’d generally not care enough to bother with pitting the whole concept, but since it’s here, I guess I might as well throw in my thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/47 "2014-02-11T16:19:23Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > So they won’t be able to understand old books. Way to fight historical ignorance! :rolleyes: > > I agree with **kanic**. The CE BCE thing solves no genuine problem. It is pointless political correctness that still leaves us with a Christocentric dating system, now merely lightly disguised, and the phrase “common era” means absolutely fuck all! How much old English do you know? Or Latin? We can forget about BC and AD as its blatantly Christian, getting rid of such symbols of religious influence can only be good ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/48 "2014-02-11T16:44:47Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > How much old English do you know? Or Latin? A little Latin, very little Old English. However, I can (and often do) easily read books and other materials from 100 years ago or more, which was the time period in question, or even several hundred without much difficulty. Please set up your straw men elsewhere. And the point is that the CE, BCE system is _still_ based in Christianity, it is just dishonestly dissembling about it. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/49 "2014-02-11T16:48:52Z")
My opinion is – how can I put this? Oh yeah, “Meh.” As a Christian, I’m not at all bothered by BCE/CE - although I don’t really get the point. As others in the thread have alluded to, we still recognize days of the week and months of the year named for Gods that not everyone (or no one) believes in. Feeling excluded or offended by AD seems to me about as sensible as being offended by Thor’sday or Janu-ary. But, I recognize that as a Christian myself I may have a blind spot here and it doesn’t do me any harm to use BCE/CE in secular or academic settings. For casual use - and certainly liturgical use - BC/AD is fine. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/50 "2014-02-11T18:28:15Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > A little Latin, very little Old English. However, I can (and often do) easily read books and other materials from 100 years ago or more, which was the time period in question, or even several hundred without much difficulty. Please set up your straw men elsewhere. > > And the point is that the CE, BCE system is _still_ based in Christianity, it is just dishonestly dissembling about it. Oh please, its no straw man. The only thing wrong was your assertion that somehow there would be a huge detriment to…I dunno, reading? if we moved away from BC/AD. Things will progress as they always do and it doesn’t matter at all if we get rid of these symbols. The good is in ridding ourselves however slightly of these religious symbols Yes, unfortunately we’re too married to the year numbers to do much about that, but ridding ourselves of even a little bit of religious domination is a good thing ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/51 "2014-02-11T18:58:46Z")
How is it a good thing? People are always going to ask why the BCE/CE changeover happens where it does. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/52 "2014-02-11T19:44:33Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Only due to the present use of european/american culture as dominant fashion. 500 years and other systems may be predominant, or none if different peoples prefer local systems as they had in the past. Very true, but so what? Calling the current international-standard era the “Common Era” doesn’t imply that everybody’s expected to go on using it forever. If/when future cultures want to change its name and/or discard it in favor of a different calendar era, they can do that. [QUOTE=Claverhouse] I’ve no objection to a new dating system for those who want one, just to keeping the same one and giving it a gloss catering to those who wish there is not a religious component when there is one. [/QUOTE] As I mentioned above, do you also complain that people don’t still say “the Sabbath days” instead of “the weekend”, on the grounds that it obscures the “religious component” of having the official break in the standard workweek fall on Saturday and Sunday? No, I doubt you do, because that would be silly. Just as it’s silly to complain about other people using a similarly generic secular term for a calendar era that is Christian in origin but now **common** to Christian and non-Christian cultures alike. > [@njtt](#): > > And the point is that the CE, BCE system is still based in Christianity, it is just dishonestly dissembling about it. > [@YogSoSoth](#): > > […] ridding ourselves of even a little bit of religious domination is a good thing There is nothing whatever “dishonest” or “anti-religious domination” about it, any more than it’s “dishonest” or “anti-religious” to use the term “weekend” instead of “Sabbath”, or “spring term” instead of “Easter term” (or, for that matter, “holidays” instead of “Christmas”). Please, people, untwist your War-on-Christmas panties and recognize that introducing generic secular descriptors for concepts that have now become cross-cultural standards beyond their original religious contexts is not somehow inherently anti-religious. Nor is it some kind of attempt to deny or cover up the specific religious origins of such standards. It’s just a pragmatic acknowledgement of the fact that the standards’ current cultural roles extend _beyond_ their specific religious origins. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/53 "2014-02-11T19:54:15Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > In the late 60s when I was in 5th grade my otherwise intelligent teacher urged us to learn the metric system, since the US would be on it very soon. So now we know that there are 750mL in a fifth and 1.5L in a handle. That’s sufficient. We can start dating the BCE/CE changeover to… hmm… let’s see… ah! Gaius Caesar’s attainment of consulship. Or the Yuanshi era starts. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/54 "2014-02-11T21:22:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yes, unfortunately we’re too married to the year numbers to do much about that, but ridding ourselves of even a little bit of religious domination is a good thing Why are religious names for days and months okay? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/55 "2014-02-11T21:36:14Z")
Unlike the length of the day and the year, there is no natural reason to start a year numbering system at any particular year. Since the West uses the current one, I’m fine with it. I’ve noted that academic works tend to use BC and BCE where needed, and does anyone except cornerstones use AD any more? As for AD being after death - I propose we hold that for renumbering the calendar after the zombie apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/56 "2014-02-11T21:50:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Well, it’s “common” because it’s used across multiple cultures, some of which have alternate year systems, like Chinese and Jewish people. It’s the only numbering system which is \*\*common \*\*to all (most?) peoples on Earth regardless of local tradition. Nice try to justify the use of “common”, but its clearly a descriptor of “eras” and not “numbering systems”. The only thing that makes this a “common era” is that we are all in it right now. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/57 "2014-02-11T22:11:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The only thing that makes this a “common era” is that we are all in it right now. We are not only all _in_ it, we’re all (or almost all) _using_ it. Not just majority-Christian or historically-Christian cultures. See the [Government of India website in Hindi](http://india.gov.in/hi/)? See that “2014” in the middle of the nagari script? That’s Anno Domini/Common Era dating. You’ll find similar uses of this era in official information from governments and organizations in China, Japan, Turkey, you name it. When a particular calendric system has become the de facto international standard among hundreds of cultures and states irrespective of their historical connection to its religious origins, it makes perfect sense to call such a system “common”. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/58 "2014-02-11T22:15:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How is it a good thing? People are always going to ask why the BCE/CE changeover happens where it does. So? > [@Skammer](#): > > Why are religious names for days and months okay? Those religions are dead and do not continue to exert an influence, so their existence is a novelty unlikely to produce bad results. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/59 "2014-02-11T23:02:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So? > > Those religions are dead and do not continue to exert an influence, so their existence is a novelty unlikely to produce bad results. Not to put too fine a point on it, but worship of the old pagan deities still exists. Their worshippers do not directly command any secular influence based upon their religious beliefs, but they do exist. Even if Asatru became a significant religion, I doubt that anyone would be required to sacrifice goats to Thor every Thursday. I know the point is rather pedantic, but hey, this IS the SDMB, right? 😉 When I studied anthropology in college, we always used BCE and CE when we didn’t use BP (before present) for very old dates in archeology. It is the international standard in that field as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/60 "2014-02-11T23:02:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Those religions are dead and do not continue to exert an influence, so their existence is a novelty unlikely to produce bad results. What “bad results” do you feel the use of BC/AD era notation produces? Like I said, I think the use of the alternative BCE/CE notation is perfectly sensible and acceptable, but arguing that BC/AD notation in itself is somehow bad or pernicious just seems silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009.md?page=4)