# CE and BCE **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009 "2014-02-10T22:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/81 "2014-02-12T23:00:11Z")
Look, everyone just relax. The calender is going to be reset shortly anyway, so this is all bunch of worrying about nothing. Just a few more months until my virus is ready… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/82 "2014-02-12T23:35:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why, what power do you believe exists in 'the year of our Lord, that Thor’s Day does not also possess? > > If it’s nonsense then let it pass, if it is a powerful threat oppose it and destroy it. You are the one who is ascribing power to it in your statement. So then you _do_ hold that Christ is as relevant as Thor? Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/83 "2014-02-12T23:53:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why are you showing SDMB threads to random girls in bars? 😃 She was ugly! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/84 "2014-02-13T03:59:59Z")
> [@andros](#): > > “Hey baby, wanna go back to my place?” > > _whips out laptop_ “… and look at my pittings?” ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/85 "2014-02-13T04:37:17Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > As I posted earlier, we’re not all xtians. And when we’re talking about time and history, it isn’t necessarily a religious conversation. I’m digging the term _“xtian”_. And picturing a building with _ **first xtian church of x** _ on the sign. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/86 "2014-02-17T23:41:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why, what power do you believe exists in 'the year of our Lord, that Thor’s Day does not also possess? But it’s not “Thor’s Day” - it’s “Thursday.” Whereas it _is_ “the year of our Lord.” ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/87 "2014-02-17T23:59:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think CE and BCE are pointless affectations. Our calendar is based on the putative birth of Christ. Changing its name won’t do anything to fix that. Get over it. My thoughts exactly. How often does “AD” appear in relation to dates nowadays anyway, for the most part? Regardless of your religious affiliation (or lack thereof), in most parts of the world the calendar is based on a numbering system which uses the birth of Jesus Christ as its starting point and coming up with politically correct hand-wringing abbreviation renamings won’t change that. The usage I’ve always encountered is any year BC is suffixed by a BC and anything after that is just the number - thus, “1914” is taken to be the twentieth century year (in which World War I broke out), not the 1914 BC in which Ancient Egypt was experiencing its Middle Kingdom period. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/88 "2014-02-18T00:16:23Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > But it’s not “Thor’s Day” - it’s “Thursday.” Whereas it _is_ “the year of our Lord.” Not quite. _Anno Domini_ is literally just “the year of the Lord”. You can interpret it as shorthand for _Anno Domini nostri_, “the year of **our** Lord”, or alternatively as shorthand for _Anno Domini Christianorum_, “the year of the Christians’ Lord”. The phrase itself has no formal confessional status, meaning that it doesn’t imply anything about the individual religious beliefs of the speaker. Sure, only worshippers of Jesus would have named a calendar era after him in the first place, just as only worshippers of Thor would have named a weekday after Thor. But just because the rest of us follow their now-standard usage as part of general calendric nomenclature does not imply that we share their beliefs. That’s equally true whether the usage in question is “A.D.”, “Thursday”, “Sunday”, “Michaelmas”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/89 "2014-02-18T00:42:17Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > […] in most parts of the world the calendar is based on a numbering system which uses the birth of Jesus Christ as its starting point and coming up with politically correct hand-wringing abbreviation renamings won’t change that. “Changing that” isn’t the intended point or purpose of the BCE/CE nomenclature, although some ill-informed people like **YogSosoth** seem to believe it is. It’s not in any way attempting to deny or conceal the Christian origin of the now-standard AD era. It merely provides an alternative name that acknowledges the era’s present-day status as a general secular standard. As [Kofi Annan put it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era#Support): > [@](#): > > [T]he Christian calendar no longer belongs exclusively to Christians. People of all faiths have taken to using it simply as a matter of convenience. There is so much interaction between people of different faiths and cultures – different civilizations, if you like – that some shared way of reckoning time is a necessity. And so the Christian Era has become the Common Era. Anyway, it’s a bit late to whine about it now. BCE/CE notation is a widely recognized alternative to BC/AD and the extent of its usage is increasing, primarily because many people find it useful to have a general secular term for a general secular calendar. You don’t have to use it if you don’t like it, but try not to be paranoid about it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/90 "2014-02-18T11:11:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “Changing that” isn’t the intended point or purpose of the BCE/CE nomenclature, although some ill-informed people like **YogSosoth** seem to believe it is. > > It’s not in any way attempting to deny or conceal the Christian origin of the now-standard AD era. It merely provides an alternative name that acknowledges the era’s present-day status as a general secular standard. As [Kofi Annan put it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era#Support): > > Anyway, it’s a bit late to whine about it now. BCE/CE notation is a widely recognized alternative to BC/AD and the extent of its usage is increasing, primarily because many people find it useful to have a general secular term for a general secular calendar. You don’t have to use it if you don’t like it, but try not to be paranoid about it. Whilst I have a great deal of respect for Mr Annan, I personally think (as a non-religious person) that the whole “BCE” thing when used by Europeans or people from other Western countires is just a bit too Lefty for my liking, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/91 "2014-02-18T16:24:44Z")
nm… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/92 "2014-02-18T16:25:34Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Whilst I have a great deal of respect for Mr Annan, I personally think (as a non-religious person) that the whole “BCE” thing when used by Europeans or people from other Western countires is just a bit too Lefty for my liking, basically. Well, you’re entitled to your personal likings, but I can’t really see how merely using a generic alternative notation for the standard calendar era counts as “Lefty”. Now, if somebody’s saying “We must replace the bourgeois symbols of theocratic domination with a revolutionary notation of the People to hasten the dawn of the new social order”, then yeah, that’s Lefty. But I think most people who use BCE/CE notation do so just because they vaguely consider it more appropriate for date references in a not-specifically-Christian context, rather than for any reasons of political ideology or “political correctness”. If it’s any comfort, the notation seems to have been first popularized by mid-nineteenth-century Jewish biblical scholars like Rabbi Morris Jacob Raphall, who was emphatically no “lefty”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/93 "2014-02-20T00:53:56Z")
My main problem with CE/BCE is simply the three letter abbreviation. It also seems rather lame that you just add “before” to “common era.” It’d be like having AM/PM be changed to MT/AMT “Morning Time” and “After Morning Time.” The abbreviations should have some symmetry to them, and not make one of them feel like a tacked on abbreviation. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/94 "2014-02-20T01:58:48Z")
Here’s a question - whose “Common Era” are we talking about? And why is it Common? I think it’s just a way of sanitizing history of Christianity, but then I’m a nut I guess… Also, not a Christian - agnostic, but that’s the way I see it. I’ll keep using BC/AD myself. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/95 "2014-02-20T02:00:44Z")
I really don’t see what the fuss is about. There were two brothers, Ditzi and Chucko, in politically correct Ecumenistan, each born a few years after the Nazarene. “BC” means “Before Chucko”, “AD”, not to be Anglocentric, means “Après Ditzi.” Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/96 "2014-02-20T03:16:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > My main problem with CE/BCE is simply the three letter abbreviation. It also seems rather lame that you just add “before” to “common era.” Huh. To me, that’s one of the good things about the BCE/CE notation. It makes it unambiguously certain that there’s only one transition point in this era system, thereby avoiding potential misunderstandings like the “Before Christ/After Death/What’s in between?” misinterpretation discussed upthread. > [@BigT](#): > > It’d be like having AM/PM be changed to MT/AMT “Morning Time” and “After Morning Time.” The abbreviations should have some symmetry to them, and not make one of them feel like a tacked on abbreviation. Welp, it could be argued that the English “Before Christ” and Latin “Anno Domini” = “in the year of the Lord” are not all that symmetrical in construction. Anyway, the symmetry of AM “ante meridian”/PM “post meridian” derives from the fact that the reference point they use is an **instant** , i.e., the instant of noon. So you can equally well describe time intervals as being **before** that instant or **after** that instant. Era systems, on the other hand, usually reference the era **itself** rather than the instant of its beginning. E.g., we speak of a date “_in_ the Jewish calendar” instead of “after the start of the Jewish calendar”, or “_in_ the Hijra era” rather than “after Hijra Instant Zero”, or “_in_ the reign of Ammisaduqa” rather than “after Ammisaduqa’s Butt-Hit-Throne Moment”. So pretty much every calendar era has that inherent asymmetry, where a given date is either **“before”** the era’s beginning or **“in”** the era itself, not “before” or “after” the era’s zero-point. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/97 "2014-02-20T04:05:12Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > UNIX epoch — Jan 1st, 1970 — we have seen the future If FORTRAN was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/98 "2014-02-20T06:02:22Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Whilst I have a great deal of respect for Mr Annan, I personally think (as a non-religious person) that the whole “BCE” thing when used by Europeans or people from other Western countires is just a bit too Lefty for my liking, basically. I suspect that this is the overwhelming opposition to it. (Not “Lefty” _per se_, but somewhere on the “Lefty,” liberal, effeminate, touchy-feely portion of the attitude spectrum as opposed to the manly, Right thinking, “this is what I grew up with and I see no reason to change” side of the spectrum.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009/99 "2014-02-20T06:57:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Anyway, the symmetry of AM “ante meridian”/PM “post meridian” derives from the fact that the reference point they use is an **instant** , i.e., the instant of noon. So you can equally well describe time intervals as being **before** that instant or **after** that instant. Picking nits : it’s meridiem, meaning midday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ce-and-bce/681009.md?page=4)