# Cecil is wrong about where Jesus is mentioned! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 1, 2008, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173 "2008-12-01T12:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/41 "2008-12-16T18:51:07Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Even conceding that, it’s still strange that the historiocity of Socrates, who lived four centuries earlier, is as well established as Christopher Columbus. Not so the Carpenter of Nazareth… > > Just saying… Right, as John said, Socrates isn’t “known” at all, in fact he’s often given as an example of someone who existance is taken for granted, despite there’s less evidence for his “real life” than that of Jesus. (Plato was well known to make things up with a straight face- e.g. Atlantis) ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/42 "2008-12-16T18:55:56Z")
Part of the issue, I think, is that many people are not aware of how little primary evidence has survived from the ancient world; and what we do have, apart from archaeological evidence, is usually copies of copies of copies, with the oldest surviving manuscript centuries after the original. I like the example of the destruction of Pompeii. We have exactly one surviving written reference to the event, from Pliny. That’s it. To continue with Socrates: consider that almost all the actual evidence for Socrates comes from what one might call “believers.” If one were to be consistently skeptical, this would surely be a red flag! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/43 "2008-12-16T19:02:07Z")
A big difference is that for most accepted historical figures of whom we know little, what we do know isn’t a list of miracles and multiple, contradictory stories of significant events that cannot be anything but hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/44 "2008-12-16T21:27:27Z")
> [@naita](#): > > A big difference is that for most accepted historical figures of whom we know little, what we do know isn’t a list of miracles and multiple, contradictory stories of significant events that cannot be anything but hearsay. That’s an interesting issue, but not the same issue as the one **CaptMurdock** raised. Attempting to write a biography of Jesus raises the questions you point at; but that’s different from an argument that no such person ever existed. Why, for example, does Plato’s description of Socrates the Heroic Sage command more credibility than his description of Atlantis? Now, I don’t seriously doubt the existence of Socrates; although I am much less confident of the stories Plato tells about him. You may question the stories about Jesus; but, in my opinion, the argument “where are his tax records, and why don’t we have writings by people who didn’t follow him?” seriously misunderstand the kind of written information we have about the ancient world. For most “accepted historical figures” we know little. There are whole Roman emperors for whom the only literary source is the Historia Augustae – which is, basically, fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/45 "2008-12-16T22:06:52Z")
You’re all conflating multiple definitions and nuances of “know.” Virtually everyone in the world “knows” the historic existence of Jesus, except for a few skeptics who have various reasons, from higher historic standards to outright disbelief, for not acknowledging his existence. Virtually every educated person “knows” of the historic existence of Socrates, too, except for… Virtually every educated person knows of the lists of Roman emperors and judges them to be historically real, except for… The exceptions are normally people who have studied the period in copious detail and understand the problematic nature of historic evidence and who have differing tolerances for ambiguity. Other than them the level of acceptance of all historic figures by the general public is about equal. OTOH, we have excellent historic evidence that Columbus and Shakespeare existed. We may not know all the facets of their lives, especially their early pre-fame lives, but the documentation of their existence is unquestionable. If CaptMurdock was trying to make a point that Jesus is less well believed than others, I’m not buying it. That is emphatically not true for the public, and certainly not true for scholars who allow for secondary source references. Worse, the mixing of Columbus and Socrates is egregious, at best a red herring, at worst, well… Oh, and while I’m just saying, here’s a question for CaptMurdock. What is the evidence that the Carpenter of Nazareth was a carpenter? Or from Nazareth, for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/46 "2008-12-16T22:08:27Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > How much did you know about “The People’s Temple” before Georgetown? How much do you know about them now _except_ Georgetown? Jonestown. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/47 "2008-12-17T03:58:09Z")
> [@naita](#): > > A big difference is that for most accepted historical figures of whom we know little, what we do know isn’t a list of miracles and multiple, contradictory stories of significant events that cannot be anything but hearsay. There are plenty of contradictions in the historic record, just as there are plenty of contradictions in today’s news. People make mistakes, or just word things badly enough to be understood, and any criminal investigator will tell you that eyewitness testimony _sucks_. This is why people are given PhDs in History. It’s damned hard work. Sometimes it can take years of study just to establish whether the Battle of Walloping-on-the-Botty took place on Tuesday or Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173/48 "2008-12-22T06:42:54Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Oh, and while I’m just saying, here’s a question for CaptMurdock. What is the evidence that the Carpenter of Nazareth was a carpenter? Or from Nazareth, for that matter? Good point. Should have said “_putative_ Carpenter of Nazareth.” On a side note, this brings me to an idea that the Mrs. saw on a TV-documentary a couple of night ago: The Christian Messiah is actually an amalgamation of several fellows who all lived around the same period. I dunno, maybe it would explain the contradictions and ambiguity… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecil-is-wrong-about-where-jesus-is-mentioned/475173.md?page=2)