# Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 3, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730 "2009-09-03T10:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/181 "2009-10-18T20:07:58Z")
Right. Well, your continued insistence on referring to me with snide, negative remarks demonstrates that you’re not in here just to read, discuss, and learn. I’m a “true believer” in the sense that facts and experience are on my side, thus I feel strongly and will argue my case effectively. I’m not a “true believer” in the sense that I am unreasonable and blind to argument, as my most recent response to **hamhawk** surely demonstrates. If you dispute something I have said, then make it clear. Stop making offhand remarks about my personality and character in place of topical discussion. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/182 "2009-10-18T20:10:45Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > So, yeah I guess you’re right–it would have been more accurate for me to say “many, many millions” and “billions spent worldwide”. Still, a billion is a thousand millions. That would leave $986,000,000 for the rest of the world to cough up. Did I do that right? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/183 "2009-10-18T20:12:55Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Still, a billion is a thousand millions. That would leave $986,000,000 for the rest of the world to cough up. > Did I do that right? 😕 Sure, you do the math. three-quarters of a million dollars per municipal or county region, **per year**. How many areas in the US alone? All of Australia? The UK? Much of western Europe? Definitely not hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/184 "2009-10-18T20:14:46Z")
And besides, what’s with the dollar count nitpicking? **One dollar** is too much to spend killing innocent dogs over an **urban legend** much less at the very least many, \*many \*millions… without a single demonstrable benefit to public safety, whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/185 "2009-10-18T20:19:02Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Right. Well, your continued insistence on referring to me with snide, negative remarks demonstrates that you’re not in here just to read, discuss, and learn. > > I’m a “true believer” in the sense that facts and experience are on my side, thus I feel strongly and will argue my case effectively. I’m not a “true believer” in the sense that I am unreasonable and blind to argument, as my most recent response to **hamhawk** surely demonstrates. > > If you dispute something I have said, then make it clear. Stop making offhand remarks about my personality and character in place of topical discussion. This is totally unfair. Snide and offhand? If anything, I’m overly direct. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/186 "2009-10-18T20:20:58Z")
So you’re not being snide and offhand, you’re being overtly and directly offensive? That makes me feel better. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/187 "2009-10-18T20:24:15Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > So you’re not being snide and offhand, you’re being overtly and directly offensive? That makes me feel better. I’m not being offensive at all. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/188 "2009-10-18T20:26:59Z")
I’ve decided to ignore you and post what I find out on my own. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/189 "2009-10-18T20:29:46Z")
…then why don’t you knock it off with the personal character assessments and address the content of my posts? When you accuse me of “ranting” and being a “true believer” and “unreasonable” without any supporting evidence for these opinions, that is offensive and uncalled for. Disagreeing with the content of my argument is one thing. Snarky personal comments are uncalled for. I am treating you with respect and answering your questions as thoroughly and as accurately as I can on an important and complex topic. I expect the same regard from you. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/190 "2009-10-18T21:14:45Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > All you have to do is say "get down, Cleo (that’s the pooch’s name) and she does. It’s just if you push her, she stiffens her legs and presses the side of her head (dog hugs) you. Say “get down” and she does. Cleo is very well obedience trained. Look, buddy, _you_ are the one who claimed the dog gave you “the eye” and “pushed back, hard” when giving it commands. ETA: and I see you’ve chosen the “ignore” route. That’s a solution, too. Happy researching! ---
**Author:** ![mercedes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@mercedes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mercedes1)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/191 "2009-10-18T23:21:58Z")
It’s a shame that **Naja** , who by any stretch has the experience, passion, and credibility to be here, has to waste her breath on folks like **HamHawk** and **Mangeorge**. It’s not that their points differ from hers, it’s that they seemingly have no valid points at all. By valid, I mean something other than shallow ‘bar room’ opinions, nitpicking, stereotyping, childish defiance (e.g. “I’m right and you’re wrong”, “I’m going to ignore you”), contradictory logic, made up statistics, selective responses, underdeveloped premises, fear-driven paranoia and well flat-out fibbing. To get us back on topic and cut to the chase, perhaps **HamHawk** , **Mangeorge** , **LHOD** , and others who have anti-pit bull leanings could tell us where they stand on the BSL issue and why: \*\*For it, Against it, or Undecided? \*\* … because frankly I don’t care if you want to go thru life with delusional pit bull notions, I only care if you want to kill mine and thousands of other innocent pets (or should I say endorse laws that do). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/192 "2009-10-18T23:58:10Z")
**mercedes** , I’ve already answered your question, I believe. If I haven’t, the fact that I argued in favor of our animal shelter adopting out pit bulls ought to indicate my stand on BSL. In short: I oppose it, for much the same reasons you do. The problem is, I think, that you and **Naja** seem to categorize all views of dogs at one extreme or the other, with no room for nuance. Mine is not extreme: mine is based on research and personal experience, and it is that pit bull-type dogs are more likely than, say, Golden Retrievers to present a threat to children, and if I don’t know the dog or owner personally, I will be more on alert around a pit-bull-type dog than around a Golden Retriever. That’s it. That’s what I stated before. If in your world that constitutes a delusion, well, somehow I think I’ll be able to sleep at night. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/193 "2009-10-19T00:11:59Z")
Here’s where I came in: > [@](#): > > I’m one of those to whom it seems that pitbull-type dogs do more harm to people, especially kids, than any other breed type. I’ve gathered this idea from news reports\*. > Is the media conspiring to shine an unfair and untrue light on innocent dogs? > \*Also from incidents in my own neighborhood, but this sample is too small to consider. > Peace, > mangeorge I’m pretty sure that says “seems”. Which, to me, leads directly to the next sentence, then to the question. And here’s NajaNivea’s reply: > [@](#): > > “Conspiring” isn’t the right word, but sensationalism sells, and “Killer Pit Bull Horror Show: Baby Shredded” makes a better story than “Neglected Boxer-mix Left Chained in Yard Bites Unsupervised Toddler”. But “conspiracy” was exactly what I as asking about, so I explained that: > [@](#): > > Wrong, NajaNivea, "conspiring is exactly the right word. > From m-w: > Quote: > 2 : to act in harmony toward a common end > Sensationalism can be an element of conspiracy, but not all (by a long shot) news reports of pitbull-type dog attacks are sensationalized. Note that I haven’t “claimed” anything, then read her reply in #130, I think it was. A straw man if ever I saw one. I’m not anti pitbull at all, which is obvious in my other replies. ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/194 "2009-10-19T00:14:15Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > **NajaNivea** is a True Believer. That doesn’t mean she’s bad, it only means she’s unreasonable. What evidence do you have that she’s a “true believer” and is "unreasonable? Her posts are extraordinarily well-written and argued and underwritten by legitimate source material. That you don’t like what she has to say doesn’t mean it is not true. And ad hoc arguments certainly undermine any shred of credibility to your (and others) arguments. If you disagree with what she has to say, then prove your argument. Don’t make ad hoc attacks, cherry pick facts and play weird semantics games. Otherwise, you become the true believer. ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/195 "2009-10-19T00:23:20Z")
Please explain to me the straw man you claim to see in post #130 because I don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/196 "2009-10-19T00:23:25Z")
> [@valleyofthedolls](#): > > What evidence do you have that she’s a “true believer” and is "unreasonable? > > Her posts are extraordinarily well-written and argued and underwritten by legitimate source material. That you don’t like what she has to say doesn’t mean it is not true. And ad hoc arguments certainly undermine any shred of credibility to your (and others) arguments. If you disagree with what she has to say, then prove your argument. Don’t make ad hoc attacks, cherry pick facts and play weird semantics games. Otherwise, you become the true believer. Sorry to go runnung back to m-w. but here I go: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: true believer > Function: noun > Date: circa 1820 > 1 : a person who professes absolute belief in something > 2 : a zealous supporter of a particular cause If **NajaNivea’s** posts don’t fit that description, I don’t know what does. Unreasonable are her attacks on my gentle inquiries and replies. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/197 "2009-10-19T00:30:37Z")
> [@valleyofthedolls](#): > > Please explain to me the straw man you claim to see in post #130 because I don’t see it. This: > [@](#): > > What you are claiming, I’m not entirely sure. Up to this point I’d made absolutely no claims for her to argue against. I’ve only asked a question, then explained that question. Do I have the wrong idea what a straw man is? ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/198 "2009-10-19T00:50:37Z")
So somebody who has a wealth of knowledge of the subject they are speaking, with well articulated arguments, research and science on their side, who has linked to many subject matter experts that happen to support their position is unreasonable. Mean while the guy who doesn’t care to research or even read Naja’s whole post and is running off of gut feeling is being reasonable. “It’s bizzaro world Jerry” ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/199 "2009-10-19T01:05:43Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > So somebody who has a wealth of knowledge of the subject they are speaking, with well articulated arguments, research and science on their side, who has linked to many subject matter experts that happen to support their position is unreasonable. > > Mean while the guy who doesn’t care to research or even read Naja’s whole post and is running off of gut feeling is being reasonable. > > “It’s bizzaro world Jerry” It frustrates me that so many really know the meaning of common words. Those qualities you mention have nothing to do with reasonableness. The use of straw man arguement, as mentioned above and exampled in the now famous post #130 is unreasonable. Or is it. Who is “Jerry”? Nevermind, I’ll google it. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/200 "2009-10-19T01:13:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Mine is not extreme: mine is based on research and personal experience, and it is that pit bull-type dogs are more likely than, say, Golden Retrievers to present a threat to children, and if I don’t know the dog or owner personally, I will be more on alert around a pit-bull-type dog than around a Golden Retriever. That’s it. Well, fine, **LHOD** … peachy keen and dandy. As mercedes1 said, so long as you are not voting to enact legislation that affects other dog owners, you are free to believe whatever you like, no matter how erroneous. I hope the commentary above means that you are 100%, completely glue-eyed vigilant around dogs of all breeds, and that you are extra-super-mathematically-impossible-percentage vigilant around dogs you perceive as “pit type”. If you have learned nothing else in this thread, the one fact you should have gleaned is that every dog is equally unsafe. Your child is statistically [no safer](http://www.atts.org/stats1.html) with a Golden Retriever, a Dachshund, or a Dalmatian than with an American Pit Bull Terrier. By all means, I am not urging you to be _less_ vigilant around pit bulls, I am urging you to be equally–_completely_–vigilant with _any_ dog of any breed. The cute, little, fluffy cocker spaniels and “pit bull types” alike. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730.md?page=11)