# Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 3, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730 "2009-09-03T10:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/81 "2009-10-13T16:47:43Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > Have agenda much? Methinks both sides have an agenda. Having an agenda isn’t the issue. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/82 "2009-10-13T17:20:01Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > So your saying 9 out of ten times you couldnt pick out a german shepard or a black lab? I’m saying two things. One is that mixed breed dogs do not necessarily look like their parents, nor do they necessarily resemble any identifiable breed in their recent genetic history. Secondly, there are many breeds, types, and mixes that bear the same phenotype commonly associated with “pit type dogs”. All studies that purport to show statistics on bites by breed rely on the victim’s ability to identify the dog. Since so many breeds, types, and mixes resemble “pit bulls”, there is no way to accurately identify which stocky, short-coated, blunt-muzzled breed was at fault. Any given individual’s ability to differentiate good examples of identified purebred dogs from good examples of other purebred dogs makes no difference whatsoever to the discussion of dog bite statistics. > [@](#): > > Give me a fing break.Your trying to split hairs here. I don’t believe this is anything like “splitting hairs”. This is the absolute _key point_ to the debate. > [@](#): > > What other breed is identacle to a pit bull? All of [these ones](http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html), for a start. Is this a [pit bull](http://europuppyblog.com/media/40/american_bulldog.jpg)? How about [this](http://static.gotpetsonline.com/pictures-gallery/dog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/cane-corso-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/pictures/cane-corso-0066.jpg)? [This guy](http://www.puppyfind.com/breed/ca_de_bou/l_161646.jpg)? What about [this dog](http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2468/nationale20de9levage20dogo20200420005ow4.jpg)? [This one](http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/images/MOUNTAIN_CUR.jpg)? [My dog](http://www.rawdogleather.com/simon.jpg) gets called a pit bull at least two or three times a week. I assure you, there is no pit bull anywhere in his breeding history. Many breeds and mixes resemble pit bulls. That you can identify a good example of a purebred German Shepherd Dog from a good example of a purebred Labrador doesn’t make any difference. Can you find the “pit bull” in this [roster](http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/do-you-know-a-lab-mix.pdf)? > [@](#): > > So what if one or 2 bull terriers were called a pitbull,they are close enough So… now you’re willing to concede that it doesn’t matter what the breed is, you only care about it’s external appearance? You’re telling us that you believe the dog’s phenotype is what makes it dangerous? > [@](#): > > The mfers were bred to kill other dogs and small animals.That was the only thing they were created for Err… many, many breeds of dogs were bred to kill small (and large) animals. Many breeds of dogs were bred for pit fighting. What’s your point? > [@](#): > > and now your jumping through hoops in the face undeniable evidence that they arent like any other breed of dog. What makes it undeniable? The fact that it’s… all wrong? Or the fact that it’s all wrong? I’ll need some help, here. > [@](#): > > I DONT GIVE A SHIT WHAT THE CDC SAYS.THEY HAVE ALL KINDS OF POLITICS GOING ON IN THERE CONSTANTLY,REGARDING DISEASES ETC. Oh, okay. If you’re laying out the platform that you don’t care about facts or science, then… I’m not really sure we can go any further with this. > [@](#): > > THERE ARE DOZENS OF OTHER STUDIES,AND SOURCES THAT DO SAY PITS ARE FAR AND AWAY THE MOST VICIOUS KILLER OF ALL THE BREEDS!!!ARE YOU GONNA DISCOUNT EVERY ONE OF THEM? Well, I don’t know. Let’s see them. It will be interesting, since as we have already established: > [@Sailboat](#): > > …the scientists at the CDC say that you **cannot** compile such a report scientifically. ALL dog bite statistics are suspect, and the ones purporting to show one breed bites more than another have been specifically repudiated by the scientists at the CDC. > > [There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbites.htm). > > The CDC recommends the [American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Task Force on Canine Aggression paper](http://www.avma.org/public_health/dogbite/dogbite.pdf), which also says: > > > [@](#): > > > > Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite.7 Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular large breeds are a problem. This should be expected, because big dogs can physically do more damage if they do bite, and any popular breed has more individuals that could bite. Dogs from small breeds also bite and are capable of causing severe injury. There are several reasons why it is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds. > > First, the breed of the biting dog may not be accurately recorded, and mixed-breed dogs are commonly described as if they were purebreds. Second, the actual number of bites that occur in a community is not known, especially if they did not result in serious injury. Third, the number of dogs of a particular breed or combination of breeds in a community is not known, because it is rare for all dogs in a community to be licensed, and existing licensing data is then incomplete.7 Breed data likely vary between communities, states, or regions, and can even vary between neighborhoods within a community. > [@](#): > > SINCE WHEN DID THE CDC BECOME THE "GOLD STANDARD"ON DOG BITES? 😃 I don’t care which side of the debate you’re on, that’s funny, right there. > [@](#): > > I KNOW WHAT I KNOW Clearly ;). Who needs facts WHEN WE HAVE SHOUTY CAPS?!LOLLLOL!!1 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/83 "2009-10-13T19:10:30Z")
NajaNivea > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Left Hand of Dorkness** > > Pit bull fatal attacks disproportionately affect children. > > I’m surprised no one else called you out on this (or maybe they did and I missed it in the gun analogy squabble), but allow me to be the first to inquire about your sources for this non-existent statistic? Well, it’s pretty clear that _dog_ fatal attacks disproportionately affect children. It’s also reasonable that the dog attacks by Pit Bulls disproportionately affect children. The issue is with the assumption that dog attacks are disproportionately Pit Bull attacks. But that statement was intended as a “but think of the children” argument and was dismissed as such. **hamhawk** said: > [@](#): > > Yea well i’m not buying it.I can identify a pitbull .I dont care if its a staffordshire,american or a mongolian pit.I’ve yet to see a german shepherd,poodle,doberman,or black lab get confused with being a pitbull.So i say that stories a crock of shit. So are you asserting that the only dog breeds are German Shepherd, Poodle, Doberman Pincher, Black Labrador Retriever, and Pit Bull? Are you asserting that **all** dog breeds have very distinct visual features? Are you asserting that if dog breeds share visual features, they aren’t really distinct breeds? How is it that you jump from being able to distinguish a few visually distinct pure-bred dogs into being able to tell a Pit Bull from any other type of dog, including when the dogs are mixed breeds? Note that the “find the pit bull” link provided has a dozen breeds of dog I had never heard of before that link. Are you that much of a dog breed expert that you know all the dog breeds? Or is it your contention that they look alike, they must really be the same breed with the same traits? From one of the previous links?, quoted by **hamhawk** : > [@](#): > > Last year in Ogden, 39 percent of the dogs involved in bites were Pit Bulls or Pit mixes. Currently, only 8 percent of the dogs licensed in Ogden are Pit Bulls, but 20 percent of the animals a handled at the Ogden shelter are Pit Bulls. In an effort to prevent bites and injuries, city administration is proposing an ordinance that will address Pit Bulls specifically, with a preventative approach. As has already been shown, dog shelters do not have any special insight into the breed of their strays, especially mixed breeds. They use this scientific process called “guessing”. DNA analysis shows that their process is flawed. This is important, because communities are taking the approach mentioned and making breed-specific legislation, but other dog owners are getting set up. For instance, **NajaNivea** posted a pic of his/her dog that is routinely mistaken as a Pit Bull. People who are biased against appearance will not be happy with **NajaNivea** ’s assurances his/her dog is not a Pit Bull - close enough for government work, euthanize it. But it didn’t even bite anyone! Hey, it’s a risk we can’t take. :rolleyes: **NajaNivea** said: > [@](#): > > For anyone still following along who wants to see if they’re as magically perceptive as our brilliant friend here, Friendly reminder, you probably want to watch your tone. Personal attacks are not allowed in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![mercedes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@mercedes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mercedes1)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/84 "2009-10-13T21:39:28Z")
**HamHawk** said: > [@](#): > > I KNOW WHAT I KNOW AND I KNOW IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG When irrational logic fails, revert to infantile tactics. Nice points, **NajaNivea**. Don’t waste your time on this guy. For anybody else who spots even an ounce of common sense in HamHawk’s rants, please post it for our ‘message boarding’ pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/85 "2009-10-14T00:55:01Z")
I am currently going through a few studies and reports [I’ve found(warning-PDF)](http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/research.htm) that the “National Canine Research Council”(aka Karen Delice) seems to have skipped over. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/86 "2009-10-14T00:58:26Z")
Which reports are those? I mean, which ones on the list do you think she hasn’t seen, or has ignored? And what leads you to those conclusions? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/87 "2009-10-14T01:22:17Z")
The first report states that Rottweilers and pit bulls were responsible for 60% of fatal attacks. The CDC report in the third link puts pit bulls at the top of the list for fatal attacks over a 15 year period. There is a report about Denver’s court fight to overturn a state legislature’s attempt to prohibit local governments from regulating dangerous dogs by specific breeds. Denver won. Also, I still haven’t found any background information whatsoever about the National Canine Research Council-the only links on line are their website(which only gives a couple of names), and all their press releases. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/88 "2009-10-14T01:48:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The first report states that Rottweilers and pit bulls were responsible for 60% of fatal attacks. > The CDC report in the third link puts pit bulls at the top of the list for fatal attacks over a 15 year period. …Okay, but again, the CDC and the American Veterinary Medical Association disagree that it’s ever possible to reliably count dog bite numbers by breed. Do I seriously need to link the CDC and AVMA’s reports for, what, the sixth time? > [@](#): > > There is a report about Denver’s court fight to overturn a state legislature’s attempt to prohibit local governments from regulating dangerous dogs by specific breeds. Denver won. 😕 Okay? [Here’s a list of municipalities where BSL has been overturned](http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/BSL2009Wins.htm). Sure Denver won. Does it mention that they’re now in the process of [overturning it](http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/article.php?aID=5166), and turning to a behavioral-based dangerous-dog law model? Can you guess why that is? [Hint](http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/Legislative/2008/denver%20ACO%20interview.pdf): Breed-specific legislation [_does not work_](http://stopbsl.com/bsloverview/the-failure-to-improve-safety/). The reason it doesn’t work is because you cannot identify dangerous dogs by phenotype. The one commonality in dog bite related fatalities is _mishandling_, not breed or phenotype. > [@](#): > > Also, I still haven’t found any background information whatsoever about the National Canine Research Council-the only links on line are their website(which only gives a couple of names), and all their press releases. /shrug What’s your point? The only time I’ve cited her is using their “find the \_\_\_” PDFs, which use DNA results from Mars Wisdom Panel, the commercially-available DNA testing group. Her historical article on dog breed hysteria is well-researched and, I believe, well written. Other than that… since nothing else I’ve cited comes from her, again… what’s your point? Leaving Karen Delise out of the conversation, what changes? Certainly not the CDC and AVMA’s stance on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/89 "2009-10-14T03:27:32Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The issue is with the assumption that dog attacks are disproportionately Pit Bull attacks. That’s part of it… but I don’t believe his thinking on that topic was a strictly linear “dog attacks [and thus pit bull attacks] disproportionately affect children”. If it was, his use of “pit bull” in place of “dog attacks” was rather disingenuous. I don’t think it was though, as **LHOD** ’s argument lies specifically in regards to his belief in an alleged inborn “psychosis” (his word) that he believes the breed carries in its DNA, as well as his idea that a dog trained to attack small animals will not be able to differentiate between a cat and a toddler. This shows that he specifically believes pit bulls to be disproportionately dangerous to small children, as opposed to all other breeds. The bizarre thing about this concept, to me, is… why aren’t the same people getting hysterical about any hunting breed that exists? After all, they were specifically bred to kill animals, and having seen plenty of “pet bred” beagles do fine work in critter control, I can assure you recent breeding history frequently makes little difference. Why not froth and fume about property guardian breeds, or personal protection breeds which carry a breeding history specifically designed around civil aggression and suspicion towards human beings? People like **LHOD** and **hamhawk** will tell you that a random-bred mongrel in the pound that has a brindle coat and semi-prick ears is a ticking timebomb, a homicidal maniac because of the potential for pit fighting blood anywhere in its remote genetic makeup, yet the same people won’t blink an eye over any one of several dozen cattle-droving, property-guardian, molossoid and personal protection breeds specifically created for human-aggression-related protection work. Our friend **hamhawk** is even repeatedly using the GSD–a breed which for most of its contemporary history has been specifically and heavily selected for civil aggression work–as a counterpoint to identifying what he alleges are “dangerous” dogs. It’s a much smaller (though still incorrect) leap to say a dog bred to bite bad guys won’t know the difference between a good guy and a bad guy, than to say a dog bred to fight other dogs will not know the difference between a cat and a human… but you won’t see them snatching up their children in a cold sweat when they see [this pooch](http://www.playdogexcellent.com/images/Brags/Marcie.JPG) strolling up the block on the end of a leash. [This dog](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/242/448457717_e1107ec6f2.jpg?v=0), however, crisis situation. :rolleyes: It makes no sense… none at all. Breed is _far_ from the main factor in dog attacks. What\*\* is\*\* the main factor? _Poor handling_. And you know, that’s kind of what pisses me off the most about all of this… these idiotic assertions that external appearance dictates whether or not a dog is dangerous completely removes the onus of responsibility from the _handler_. Instead of pinning the culpability on the idiot with the unrestrained, undersocialized dog of any type, they look at the shape of the dog’s ears and declare that it’s a natural menace to society, psychotic beyond control. WTF kind of justice is that? > [@](#): > > This is important, because communities are taking the approach mentioned and making breed-specific legislation, but other dog owners are getting set up. For instance, **NajaNivea** posted a pic of his/her dog that is routinely mistaken as a Pit Bull. People who are biased against appearance will not be happy with **NajaNivea** ’s assurances his/her dog is not a Pit Bull - close enough for government work, euthanize it. But it didn’t even bite anyone! Hey, it’s a risk we can’t take. :rolleyes: You can bet we carry his paperwork on us at all times when we travel with him. There are a whole lot of [municipalities](http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/Locations/USLocations.htm), counties, and even entire states where he can be legally seized and immediately euthanized on animal control’s say-so based on his appearance, and if I didn’t have his pedigree, registration paperwork and tattoo information in hand, I would have no legal recourse to stop it. In most cases, the laws are written such that any dog that fits the visual profile is affected, not just the APBT and associated pit-history breeds. _Any dog that fits the profile based on physical characteristics_–that means they don’t have to prove your dog _is_ a pit, only make a claim that it bears some of the physical characteristics of pit-type dogs… and that if you cannot prove your dog is _not_ a pit, your dog will die. Mixed-breed pound puppy? So sorry… unless you can swing [DNA profiling](http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/1443700.html) in time. That mine is a hog hunting dog from South America with no “pit bull” in thirty generations behind him makes no difference to someone with an irrational hate on for dogs that look like him… if he fits the profile, he dies. [QUOTE=hamhawk] NOT ENOUGH OF THEM HAVE MET A LETHAL FATE [/QUOTE] I don’t know if any of you non-bully-type-dog owners really understand what it’s like when a certain sector of society viscerally hates your dog to the point of wishing death upon them, purely because they fit a sort of canine racial profile. I can count the number of people who have recognized his breed in seven years on one hand. We are out in public a lot together, and mostly people are very attracted to him, but I have had people threaten to shoot or poison my “mutant pit bull”. He’s never, never left in the yard unattended for this very reason. What makes it that much worse is that pits are _good dogs_. They’re stable, friendly, loving dogs. They’ve got their drawbacks like any other breed, but in generally, they really did and do deserve their historic status as “America’s Dog”. ---
**Author:** ![MyCatLovesTV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@MyCatLovesTV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyCatLovesTV)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/90 "2009-10-14T04:44:27Z")
I’m new here. Found this while reading other interesting facts. As a pet lover, with special state issued license plates for being a pet lover, one who gives all my charitable contributions to animal rescue organizations, I can’t help but be disturbed by the anger here. I live on a busy street on the way to a busier city park. I love to talk to all the dog walkers. I always ask the walkers if I may greet their dog and then I offer my hand for a sniff first to ask the dog as well. I watched as a terrified newly rescued American Eskimo Dog who let me gently speak to her on her first walk on a leash turned into a lively affectionate love bug. She remembered me from that first day and her once curled under tail was wagging to beat the band! I even met a young man with a pit bull. Betty the pit was wearing a pink bandana and she wagged her entire butt with happiness at meeting a new friend. You can bet your hind quarters I asked about the temperment of Betty before I approached. That being said, it ain’t the dog. It’s the owner. I HATE picking up dog poop from my corner property since I have a cat. I hate that my grass dies where people let their female dogs pee in my yard. But I am not angry at the dogs. It is the owner. Whether the owner has a pit or a lab or a nervous teacup chihauhau, that owner has responsibility to ALWAYS have control over his/her animal. The owner has a responsibility to make sure the yard is secure at ALL times. The owner has the responsibility to take their pets to regular vet visits. A sick dog could become a biting dog for no other reason than poor pup felt lousy. A dog of whatever breed is owed quality food, quality care, quality supervision and quality training. Don’t adopt a dog on a whim. Dog ownership is a huge responsibility. But the love you get in return is worth it all. It seems to me (in my humble opinion) that some breeds get a bad rap because of stupid humans. Humans take something sweet, something that wants to please and turns that creature into something terrible. (Insert Michael Vick comment here if desired.) Sometimes I would rather spend my days with dogs and cats than some of the humans that are on this planet. It ain’t the dog…it’s the human. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/91 "2009-10-14T07:20:02Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > …Okay, but again, the CDC and the American Veterinary Medical Association disagree that it’s ever possible to reliably count dog bite numbers by breed. Sorry, that should have said “disagree with the premise that…” ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/92 "2009-10-14T21:59:34Z")
**NajaNivea** said: > [@](#): > > There are a whole lot of municipalities, counties, and even entire states where he can be **legally seized and immediately euthanized on animal control’s say-so based on his appearance** , and if I didn’t have his pedigree, registration paperwork and tattoo information in hand, I would have no legal recourse to stop it. In most cases, the laws are written such that any dog that fits the visual profile is affected, not just the APBT and associated pit-history breeds. I’d be curious for a cite on that. I suppose I can envision some type of wording where that is technically possible but seems totally reasonable - except for the bit about being breed specific. ---
**Author:** ![mercedes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@mercedes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mercedes1)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/93 "2009-10-14T23:55:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **NajaNivea** said: > I’d be curious for a cite on that. I suppose I can envision some type of wording where that is technically possible but seems totally reasonable - except for the bit about being breed specific. NajaNivea is mostly correct … go to any website with BSL ordinances and you will find the dreaded “anything that resembles a pit bull” language. My only objection to Naja’s statement is use of the word “immediately” – in many cases there is a brief waiting period to accommodate disputes or efforts to relocate the dog outside the municipality, though it usually just delays the inevitable. Most people don’t have the resources to fight city hall or uproot their lives over a pet. Don’t believe it happens? Over 2000 pits (and pit-like) dogs seized & killed in Denver. I’ve actually heard numbers exceeding 3500. See recent articles: [http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=13623](http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=13623) [http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/09/inside\_denvers\_pit\_bull\_row.php?page=1](http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/09/inside_denvers_pit_bull_row.php?page=1) Photo: Director of Denver’s Animal Control being licked by a pit bull on death row … Not a surprising image to any of us who know the breeds. [http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/illegal%20pitbull%2C%20no%20other%20info%20(9).jpg](http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/illegal%20pitbull%2C%20no%20other%20info%20%289%29.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/94 "2009-10-15T00:12:24Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I’d be curious for a cite on that. I suppose I can envision some type of wording where that is technically possible but seems totally reasonable - except for the bit about being breed specific. Which part were you wanting cited? Here’s [Bracken County, KY](http://www.kentuckylawblog.com/2006/12/dogs_coa_uphold.html)’s ordinance. (bolding mine in all cases) > [@](#): > > The decision further described the ordinance affirmed: > > ``` > In 2004, the Bracken County Fiscal Court passed an ordinance which dealt generally with animal control and ncludedordinance, a “pit bull terrier” is defined as any dog which is a registered American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull > Terrier or American Pit Bull Terrier, or one which conforms to the standards of such a dog, **or one which has the predominant physical characteristics of such a dog.** Ordinance § 53.90. > > The fiscal court determined by ordinance that pit bull terriers “have inherently vicious and dangerous propensities, and are potentially hazardous and unreasonably dangerous to the health, safety, and welfare” of the citizens of Bracken County, and it declared that the ownership and keeping of such dogs in the county is “a public nuisance.” Ordinance §§ 53.91(A) and (B). > > Further, the “ownership, location, maintenance, keeping, harboring, or use” of pit bull terriers was made punishable by a fine of up to $500, and/or incarceration of up to 90 days, and **any animals meeting the definition of pit bull terriers were made subject to forfeiture and euthanasia.** Ordinance §§ 53.91(C) and 53.92. > > ``` [Miami-Dade County, Florida](http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10620&sid=9) (search “pit bull” and click on first link) Point c) is particularly vicious–they specifically rule out out phenotypic considerations as evidence for why your dog is _not_ a pit bull. In other words: they can use the matching characteristics as evidence, but you cannot use the differing characteristics as a defense. > [@](#): > > Sec. 5-17.1. Definition and identification of a pit bull dog. > (a) The term “pit bull dog” as used within this article shall refer to any dog which exhibits those distinguishing characteristics which: > (1) Substantially conform to the standards established by the American Kennel Club for American Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Bull Terriers; or > (2) Substantially conform to the standards established by the United Kennel Club for American Pit Bull Terriers. > (b) The Standards of the American Kennel Club and the United Kennel Club referred to in subsection (a) above, are attached hereto and incorporated herein by reference as “Exhibit A” and shall remain on file with the Animal Services Division of the Public Works Department of Miami-Dade County. > **(c) Technical deficiencies in the dogs’ conformance to the standards described in subsection (b) shall not be construed to indicate that the subject dog is not a “pit bull dog” under this article.** > (d) \*\*Testimony by a veterinarian, zoologist, animal behaviorist, or animal control officer that a particular dog exhibits distinguishing physical characteristics \*\*of a pit bull shall establish a rebuttable presumption that the dog is a pit bull. > > \ > (b) No pit bull dogs may be sold, purchased, obtained, brought into Miami-Dade County, or otherwise acquired by residents of Miami-Dade County anytime after the passage of ninety (90) days after the effective date of Ordinance Number 89-22. No such newly-acquired pit bull dogs may be kept, maintained, or otherwise harbored within Miami-Dade County, and each day any such newly-acquired pit bull is so kept, maintained, or harbored shall constitute a separate violation of this section. > (1) Violation of subsection (b) may result in the issuance of a civil violation notice, and > (2) **Humane destruction of the pit bull dog by order of a court of competent jurisdiction.** [Denver, Colorado](http://www.ci.yakima.wa.us/citycode/_DATA/TITLE06/Chapter_6_18_PIT_BULL_DOGS/index.html) (same search criteria): > [@](#): > > Sec. 8-55. Pit bulls prohibited. > (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to own, possess, keep, exercise control over, maintain, harbor, transport, or sell within the city any pit bull. > (b) Definitions. > (1) An “owner,” for purposes of this chapter, is defined as any person who owns, possesses, keeps, exercises control over, maintains, harbors, transports or sells an animal. > (2) A “pit bull,” for purposes of this chapter, is defined as any dog that is an American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or any dog displaying the majority of physical traits of any one (1) or more of the above breeds, **or any dog exhibiting those distinguishing characteristics** which substantially conform to the standards established by the American Kennel Club or United Kennel Club for any of the above breeds. > [@](#): > > (e) Notwithstanding the provisions of Article VIII of this chapter, **the manager is authorized to immediately impound any pit bull found in the City and County of Denver which does not fall within the exceptions listed in subsection (c), above, and the municipal animal shelter may house or dispose of such pit bull in such manner as the manager may deem appropriate**, except as the procedures in subsection (f), below, otherwise require. At least there’s this: > [@](#): > > (f) When the manager has impounded any pit bull dog pursuant to this section, and the owner of such dog disputes the classification of such dog as a pit bull, the owner of such dog may file a written petition with the manager for a hearing concerning such classification no later than seven (7) days after impoundment. Such petition shall include the name and address, including mailing address, of the petitioner. The manager will then issue a notice of hearing date by mailing a copy to the petitioner’s address no later than ten (10) days prior to the date of the hearing. Where no written request from the owner for a hearing is received by the manager within seven (7) days of impoundment, the pit bull shall be destroyed. > The hearing, if any, will be held before the manager or a hearing officer designated by the manager. Any facts which the petitioners wishes to be considered shall be submitted under oath or affirmation either in writing or orally at the hearing. The manager or hearing officer shall make a final determination whether the dog is a pit bull as defined in subsection (b)(2) of this section. Such final determination shall be considered a final order of the manager subject to review under Rule 106(a)(4) of the state rules of civil procedure. > **If the dog is found to be a pit bull, it shall be destroyed** … So you’re (potentially) allowed a hearing, but if it’s a mixed-breed dog and you have no registry paperwork or any other verifiable proof, then you’re screwed. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/95 "2009-10-15T00:40:59Z")
> [@mercedes1](#): > > NajaNivea is mostly correct … go to any website with BSL ordinances and you will find the dreaded “anything that resembles a pit bull” language. My only objection to Naja’s statement is use of the word “immediately” – in many cases there is a brief waiting period to accommodate disputes or efforts to relocate the dog outside the municipality, though it usually just delays the inevitable. Most people don’t have the resources to fight city hall or uproot their lives over a pet. It’s true, many give you a few days to present documents (if you have them), but for a mixed-breed dog this grace period is absolutely useless. Some areas, like Yakima County, Washington, give you the option of placing the dog outside the city or killing it, so there is that. Sometimes of course they dispense with the procedural nonsense, and just [let the dog out](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/09/police.kill.dog/index.html) of the car and [shoot it in the face](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1UnQwVbHpU). Or in Toledo, on your [front porch](http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=9391185), then laugh about it. Both of these areas, Toledo and much of Tennessee, carry anti-pit-bull ordinances. If the dog is considered _de facto_ vicious, it’s easy to justify killing it. …and sure, neither of these examples prove anything, but I suspect a poodle coming toward the officer and carrying the same body language (perked ears, smiley mouth, wagging tail) would probably not have received the same welcome. ---
**Author:** ![MyCatLovesTV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@MyCatLovesTV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyCatLovesTV)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/96 "2009-10-15T10:53:33Z")
This was just put up on the St. Louis Post Dispatch website. Not all communities are trying to kill every pitbull. The Humane Society of Missouri works tirelessly in their efforts to stop puppy mills (a big problem here), rescue dogs from mills and horders and, now, rehibilitate fighting pitbulls. One dog is starting a new life as a therapy dog. I hope the link works. The picture says a thousand words. If the link does not work, the story can be found through the main page [www.stltoday.com](http://www.stltoday.com) [http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/CE25E6F171B58C988625765000072F22?OpenDocument](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/CE25E6F171B58C988625765000072F22?OpenDocument) ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/97 "2009-10-15T12:50:32Z")
Oh man… thanks for posting that. [This photo](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/0/ce25e6f171b58c988625765000072f22/$FILE/STG17201/STG17201.gif?OpenElement) just about made me lose it. > [@](#): > > Oct. 14, 2009 - Jakob, one of hundreds of American pit bulls that were seized July 8 in a dozen states from the largest dogfighting raid in U.S. history, gets a kiss from cruelty investigator Kyle Held at the Humane Society of Missouri headquarters in St. Louis. Jake and five others seized during the raids will soon leave the Humane Society’s emergency shelter in St. Louis for new homes. Jake is headed to Los Gatos, Calif., for a new career as a therapy dog. ---
**Author:** ![mercedes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@mercedes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mercedes1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/98 "2009-10-15T14:25:46Z")
> [@MyCatLovesTV](#): > > This was just put up on the St. Louis Post Dispatch website. Not all communities are trying to kill every pitbull. The Humane Society of Missouri works tirelessly in their efforts to stop puppy mills (a big problem here), rescue dogs from mills and horders and, now, rehibilitate fighting pitbulls. One dog is starting a new life as a therapy dog. I hope the link works. The picture says a thousand words. If the link does not work, the story can be found through the main page [www.stltoday.com](http://www.stltoday.com) > > [http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/CE25E6F171B58C988625765000072F22?OpenDocument](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/CE25E6F171B58C988625765000072F22?OpenDocument) Good point, **MyCatLovesTV** , though when you reference “communities”, be careful to distinguish between the Humane Society and city government. The Humane Society (national & local chapters) have been on the right side of this issue for years, but they don’t make the rules. City politicians, on the other hand, widely ignore [the recommendations of just about every major animal organization](http://jentown.com/stopbsl/bslposition.htm) in existence, caving to pressure from hysterical citizens like HamHawk, and pandering to fear-driven voters under the guise of “protecting the community”. But to your original point, there appears ‘some’ growing evidence of the general public giving these dogs a better chance at life. The Michael Vick case offered us an unprecedented example of how remarkable pits are. These WERE genetically bred fighting dogs and WERE exposed to the worst conditions imaginable, yet [47 out of 49 dogs](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/07/06/ST2008070602429.html) were successfully rehabbed, adopted, or sanctuaried (1 euthanized for illness, 1 euthanized for temperament). That’s a 98% success rate under court supervision … doesn’t quite fit the “vicious killing machine” stereotype, does it? I dare say those results could not be achieved with human beings, yet pit bull haters keep on hating, politicians keep on banning, and shelters keep on killing. ---
**Author:** ![mercedes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@mercedes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mercedes1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/99 "2009-10-15T14:56:31Z")
For anyone who may still be on the fence about how they feel about pit bulls, you may want to watch this excellent “audio gallery” from the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/galleries/vickdogs/) regarding the Michael Vick dogs. The images and audio of the actual people/dogs involved may prove more convincing then the varied opinions on this message board. > **[Photography](https://www.washingtonpost.com/photography/)** > > Find multimedia and interactive features including photos, video and galleries on news, politics, travel, autos, movies, fashion, science and much more. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/100 "2009-10-15T15:04:45Z")
The bizarre thing about this concept, to me, is… why aren’t the same people getting hysterical about any hunting breed that exists? After all, they were specifically bred to kill animals, and having seen plenty of “pet bred” beagles do fine work in critter control, I can assure you recent breeding history frequently makes little difference… We’ll get "hysterical"when beagles start attacking and killing people in big numbers…lol…look out people for the attack of the killer beagles… People like LHOD and hamhawk will tell you that a random-bred mongrel in the pound that has a brindle coat and semi-prick ears is a ticking timebomb, a homicidal maniac because of the potential for pit fighting blood anywhere in its remote genetic makeup, yet the same people won’t blink an eye over any one of several dozen cattle-droving, property-guardian, molossoid and personal protection breeds specifically created for human-aggression-related protection work… Don’t go putting words in my mouth.I don’t think its right to ban pit bulls or any other breed of dog.If your dog is biting or mauling anyone then don’t worry about it.I’m sure majority of the time they catch the offending dog,therefore it doesnt really matter what breed it gets listed under.Bottom lne is people are sick and tired of their kids getting mauled/and killed by \*\*_DOGS_[B.It just so happens that the biggest offenders seem to be that breed that goes around impersonating pitbbulls.The media and public arent making it up.They just didnt grab the name pitbull out of a hat .If as you say your a responsable pet owner then you got nothing to worry about.The stats don’t lie and every study says pits and rotts are right atthe top.I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT THE CDC SAYS OK!Do you really believe a dog that was bred and in fact created to kill is no more likely to bite than a dog bred to fetch or herd cattle?Be honest,and try and keep a straight face as you lie najanivea… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730.md?page=6)