# Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 3, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730 "2009-09-03T10:12:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/161 "2009-10-18T17:33:22Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Ugh, and now I really _am_ spamming the thread, but just for the record, I agree with **valleyofthedolls** here. I apologize if my entrance into this thread was not helpful. That wasn’t my intent. I find the sociological history behind pit bulls as they live today pretty fascinating and sometimes get carried away. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/162 "2009-10-18T17:35:49Z")
No, very helpful. I agree with every word you said, I just realized after the fact that what I’d said in response to **mangeorge** might be misconstrued, and I didn’t want people to think that me pointing out his inattention to detail was due to me disagreeing with your commentary. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/163 "2009-10-18T17:36:18Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Ugh, and now I really _am_ spamming the thread, but just for the record, I agree with **valleyofthedolls** here. > > A dog with a tendency toward resource-guarding and pack-status challenge is not a dog that should be allowed to sleep on the furniture, and is a dog who should be expected to [earn all good things in life](http://www.petpeoplesplace.com/resources/articles/dogs/129-nothing-in-life-free-nilif-be-good-pack-leader.htm). As in most such cases, this is a fine example of user error. **VOD** didn’t say “user error”, he/she said “too lazy”. There’s no error. All you have to do is say "get down, Cleo (that’s the pooch’s name) and she does. It’s just if you push her, she stiffens her legs and presses the side of her head (dog hugs) you. Say “get down” and she does. Cleo is very well obedience trained. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/164 "2009-10-18T17:43:42Z")
I am hard at work trying to find a lot of non-directed examples of sensationalized reporting. Does “rampage”, referring to an escaped pitbull biting several people in a neighborhood count? Most reports say something like “Pit bull attacks…” then goes on to describe the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/165 "2009-10-18T17:48:18Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I am hard at work trying to find a lot of non-directed examples of sensationalized reporting. Does “rampage”, referring to an escaped pitbull biting several people in a neighborhood count? > Most reports say something like “Pit bull attacks…” then goes on to describe the incident. And how do they know it’s a pit bull? ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/166 "2009-10-18T17:54:36Z")
Yes, sensationalized language like “rampage”, “horror”, “mauling” and so on. Also keep in mind that it’s not always so cut-and-dried as overtly sensationalistic language. Attacks involving pit-type dogs are reported far more frequently than attacks by other breeds, and dogs involved in bite incidents are often reported as pit bulls when they were nothing of the kind, or only a mixed breed which happens to bear some of the characteristics commonly associated with pit-type dogs. Here is another such example [PDF]: [Bizarre Attacks on New York’s Finest](http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/MistakenIdentity/BreedmissID.pdf): “One officer was attacked by a pit bull, and another officer shot in the face…” The dog on the end of that comealong sure as hell looks like a rottweiler, to me. Ten-to-one the “pit bull” misreporting and the headline “bizarre attacks” goes hand-in-hand, since a mishandled, unrestrained dog in a depressed urban environment biting someone on the leg is not, typically, considered “bizarre”. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/167 "2009-10-18T18:02:11Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > And how do they know it’s a pit bull? That’s part of what I’m trying to find out. I doubt that they do a genealogy on the dog. Probably by the dog’s appearance and witness reports. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/168 "2009-10-18T18:11:11Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > That’s part of what I’m trying to find out. I doubt that they do a genealogy on the dog. If that were even possible most of the time. I live in an area that until recently was somewhat poor, and populated by a large number of young men of various racial persuasions. It seems like every other one was walking around with an intact pit bullish looking dog. I strongly suspect that very few of them came with a pedigree. > [@](#): > > Probably by the dog’s appearance and witness reports. Which are notoriously unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/169 "2009-10-18T18:46:54Z")
You can stand an english mastiff and a chihuahua side-by-side and easily see that they’re both canids. It requires at least a little nit-picking to differentiate between some breeds. Pretty much all modern variations are due to human intervention. Which is why, I guess, we have to say “pitbull-type dogs”. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/170 "2009-10-18T18:59:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If that were even possible most of the time. I live in an area that until recently was somewhat poor, and populated by a large number of young men of various racial persuasions. It seems like every other one was walking around with an intact pit bullish looking dog. I strongly suspect that very few of them came with a pedigree. > Which are notoriously unreliable. Would you be satisfied if they used the “pitbull-type” term? Thing is, quite a few of these guy’s dogs do have a pedigree going back some generations. They’ll recite it to you gladly, and with pride. Not all, though. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/171 "2009-10-18T19:07:36Z")
> [@NajaNivea](#): > > Yes, sensationalized language like “rampage”, “horror”, “mauling” and so on. Also keep in mind that it’s not always so cut-and-dried as overtly sensationalistic language. Attacks involving pit-type dogs are reported far more frequently than attacks by other breeds, and dogs involved in bite incidents are often reported as pit bulls when they were nothing of the kind, or only a mixed breed which happens to bear some of the characteristics commonly associated with pit-type dogs. > > Here is another such example [PDF]: [Bizarre Attacks on New York’s Finest](http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/MistakenIdentity/BreedmissID.pdf): “One officer was attacked by a pit bull, and another officer shot in the face…” > > The dog on the end of that comealong sure as hell looks like a rottweiler, to me. Ten-to-one the “pit bull” misreporting and the headline “bizarre attacks” goes hand-in-hand, since a mishandled, unrestrained dog in a depressed urban environment biting someone on the leg is not, typically, considered “bizarre”. I guess you and only you can identify breeds of dogs now.The cdc be dammned after you posted their link 157 times…lol .. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/172 "2009-10-18T19:17:21Z")
Dog attacks are up 50% in the UK over the last ten years, despite billions having been spent regulating and killing pit-bull-type dogs. Billions?Come on naja. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/173 "2009-10-18T19:22:16Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Would you be satisfied if they used the “pitbull-type” term? Slightly more satisfied, but it would be far more appropriate to say “mixed breed dog” because by no means are all dogs with this phenotype of pit-dog ancestry. “Bulldog type” might be _slightly_ more accurate, but that still doesn’t account for dogs with, say, boxer or mastiff or labrador background that still fit the bill. > [@hamhawk](#): > > I guess you and only you can identify breeds of dogs now.The cdc be dammned after you posted their link 157 times…lol .. No, **hamhawk** , and you’re right. I cannot say with certainty that it is a rottweiler in the photo, but I can (and actually did) say that it _looks to me_ like a reasonably good example of a rottweiler, and that it fits the description far closer than it fits the description of an American Pit Bull Terrier. If we are making WAGs based on phenotype as the reporters apparently were, my eye says it’s a rottweiler. If the reporters were uneducated on the topic of dog-breed ID, then they should keep their WAGs to themselves. The thing is, a wide range of breeds and types when mixed and matched result in what has been come to be known as the generic “pit bull type”. Very few breeds when mixed will result in something that looks approximately like a rottweiler with the same skull-to-muzzle ratio, stop shape and signature descending topline. You are 100% correct that it’s a guess. It’s better guess than “pit bull”. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/174 "2009-10-18T19:22:27Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > I guess you and only you can identify breeds of dogs now.The cdc be dammned after you posted their link 157 times…lol .. **NajaNivea** is a True Believer. That doesn’t mean she’s bad, it only means she’s unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/175 "2009-10-18T19:24:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > In my experience, no dog is more viscious than a Chihuahua. I’ve never encountered one that did not snarl, drool, and snap at every houseguest. The owner of the little ankle nipper, of course, is oblivious as the little monster lays in her lap like a soothed kitten. “Isn’t it cute how he growls! Oh, don’t worry. He won’t bite.” I’ll take a chihuahua bite over a pit bull any day of the week!According the pit lovers here though chihuahuas are no more likely to bite than any other dog,because they all are the same supposedly..lol…ive noticed shih tzus are mean little grumpy dogs in my experience,but again they arent dangerous,ive been bitten by a couple of them.just nippy lil turds… ---
**Author:** ![mercedes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@mercedes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mercedes1)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/176 "2009-10-18T19:25:28Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I am hard at work trying to find a lot of non-directed examples of sensationalized reporting. Does “rampage”, referring to an escaped pitbull biting several people in a neighborhood count? > Most reports say something like “Pit bull attacks…” then goes on to describe the incident. Hands down, the worst offender in the news business is Nancy Grace. She puts the “s” in sensationalism and is the queen of tabloid journalism. I couldn’t find any video of her “pit bull” episodes, but here is a [transcript](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0611/07/ng.01.html) of one. The words alone don’t do it justice because what you don’t see is the constant looping of bloody pit bull fighting videos (the show wasn’t about pit bull fighting!). About half way thru the transcript is the good stuff when she rudely cuts off her guest from Pit Bull Rescue Central and says [paraphrasing] “… other than pit bulls, I couldn’t find a single example on the internet of another breed killing someone” … brilliant research, Nancy! Or later when she says “The dogs ‘ate’ the baby”, referring to an event where an unsupervised infant suffered fatal bite wounds from four dogs … A tragic and completely avoidable biting incident, yes, … a ‘meal’ for the dogs, I don’t think so Nancy. Frankly, I think Nancy Grace is a sleazy crack pot, but what’s really scary is that she has a sizable audience which lacks the mental capacity to decipher truth from crap. “If it bleeds, it leads” on Nancy Grace … and her audience loves it. ---
**Author:** ![hamhawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee7513/32.png) [@hamhawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hamhawk)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/177 "2009-10-18T19:26:58Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > **NajaNivea** is a True Believer. That doesn’t mean she’s bad, it only means she’s unreasonable. I agree 100% ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/178 "2009-10-18T19:41:42Z")
> [@hamhawk](#): > > Dog attacks are up 50% in the UK over the last ten years, despite billions having been spent regulating and killing pit-bull-type dogs. > Billions?Come on naja. Are you even… bothering to read any of the _factual reports_ I am linking to? Prince George County, MD’s task force reported that it cost more than half a million dollars per year at that time to enforce a pit bull ban. The cost in 2001 was estimated to be approximately three-quarters of a million dollars for one small geographic area. Between the years 1991-1996 the UK spent more than 14 million dollars enforcing the Dangerous Dogs Act (they haven’t released any more recent numbers). Multiply that by all the municipal, county and state-sized areas that currently have similar legislation in force and “billions” is by no means hyperbole. The [Canadian government](http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/Financial%20Implications.pdf) [PDF] reviewed the same stats I’ve linked here, and decided that the costs were staggering, results useless, and that… …wait for it… …breed specific legislation drains the coffers and _does not work_. I would feel bad about your and **mangeorge** ’s assessment of me if either one of you were able to present any remotely plausible argument in your own favor. Sadly for the tens of thousands of dogs and dog owners currently being affected by breed specific dog laws, you don’t need facts or truth on your side to get such laws going… simply the credulity to take an urban legend to heart and a blind inability to change your mind in the face of all facts and reason. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/179 "2009-10-18T19:49:15Z")
So, yeah I guess you’re right–it would have been more accurate for me to say “many, many millions” and “billions spent worldwide”. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730/180 "2009-10-18T20:01:09Z")
My _side_? My “side” was, initially, a question. I’m leaning toward believing that claims of “sensationalism”, while maybe not exactly hyperbole, may be exaggeration. At least in overall frequency of occurance. It’s not widespread enough to be a conspiracy. It is kind of hard to prove a negative, ya know. This whole thing reminds me of The Gun Debate. BTW; I’m a gun owner. I’ll retire in a year or two, so then I can adopt a dog or two too. The term “dog owner” grates on me for some reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecils-comment-on-pit-bulls/508730.md?page=10)