# Cecilvania: The Forbidden Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 15, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472 "2008-05-15T18:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/41 "2008-05-23T15:32:14Z")
Oh man, OAOW, I totally thought you were scum. My scumdar sucks. I should just do the opposite of whatever it tells me, usually. I’m not sure I believe storyteller’s claim that his slip was not a genuine scum slip, but an editing error. It seems strange to me that people are buying it. However, I suppose there is the possibility that he’s up to something, and said that intentionally. I can see him heading straight into a convoluted bit of strategy before the scum have a chance to talk, just so that the other scum are pretty much compelled to follow his plan once they are able to chat. I gotta say, that was the craziest Day One I’ve ever seen. Of course, my experience is fairly limited, so I’m sure Day One has been more intense in the past. I have dreams of modding a game one day… Which reminds me: anyone know where I can check out jsexton’s famous balancing formula? I’ve heard a lot about it, but I’m not really sure how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/42 "2008-05-23T15:36:40Z")
The discussion is in [this thread on the other boards](http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=85). > [@JSexton](#): > > Sure. The basic idea is to assign points for each role, with vanilla townies forming a baseline of 1 point each. The goal is to end up within, say 2 or 3 points of each other for town and scum. Keep in mind that this is still pretty subjective, and is open to debate about the exact pointing. > > Cop: 4 > Doc: 3 > Vig: 2.5 > Compulsory Vig: 1.5 (some say less. Heck, some say it’s worse than vanilla town) > Roleblocker: 2 > Back-Up Cop: 2.5 > Back-Up Doc: 2 > Watcher: 2 > Tracker: 2 > 1 Shot Vig: 2 > self-confirming townie: 2 > 2 man masonry: 2 points each > 3 man masonry: 2.5 points each > 4 man masonry: 3 points each > Vanilla Townie: 1 > > You can have roles that are worth less than a townie nothing or even negative, such as: > Miller: .5 (hey, at least he can vote!) > Self-ending townie (dies automatically given a certain threshold): 0 > Voteless Townie: -1 (because he still counts toward the lynch number) > > Scum > > Basic Mafia: 4.5 > Godfather: 7 > Investigator: 6 > Toughguy (bonus nightkill): 7 > Daykiller (bonus daykill): 7.5 > Roleblocker: 6.5 > Redirector: 7 > > Serial Killer: I actually consider the SK a vanilla mafioso for purposes of game balance, with added points for abilities like being untargetable, investigating as innocents, etc. > > After looking at certain interactions (like cop+doc) I will add bonus points for the town. The scum might also have certain synergies, like getting a bonus point of they have both a role investigator AND a redirector. For unusual roles (like the Bingo manager), you just need to think about what the actual impact on the game will be, and equate it to an existing role. > > Finally, how does the game start? > > Day start generally favors the town: +1 to town > Cop Head Start (Night start with use of all abilities but no Kills allowed: +2 to town > Normal Night start: 0 > > This is very much a work in progress. One way to evaluate it’s effectiveness is to go back and look at a completed game that went down to the wire where nothing went dramatically wrong for either side (i.e., no modkills or anything like that). That should, in theory, be a well-balanced game. Then point it, and see if it comes out even. If it doesn’t, then you might be pointing incorrectly and need to adjust your method. I’m not sure if he mentions it in this post, but the formula is intended for closed games. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/43 "2008-05-23T16:21:25Z")
Thanks, rysto. I’m not so hot at math, but I think I can grok that method. ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/44 "2008-05-23T23:50:23Z")
I’m glad you allowed night-time cage-dancing from the peanut gallery, mods. I do love me some booty-shaking! ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/45 "2008-05-25T03:05:49Z")
:Sigh: at least i died with no regrets as a Townie- my last Day posts shared EVERY thought I possibly had in my head (the mondo If X turns out Z, or Y turns out Z). So it’s not like I went to the grave with any secrets. And better me than a Power role… But it sucks to die early in a game, I’m usually never nightkilled because I’m always so damn pro-town its easier to try to get me lynched on suspicions of “no one’s THAT townie”. So at least I did the pro-towniest moves I could do before I died. I just hope the town LOOKS over those thoughts as they were smart moves. I still don’t trust Story, but I don’t think he made a “scum slip”, he may be scum, but he didn’t really slip up there. If he had say 4 or just 5, yeah, but he said just 3, which to me seems kinda low and more likely the error of leaving off the rest of the sentence. I still distrust Freudian though, AND Sach. Both to me should be looked at today. Sach is the easy one to paint though into a “_Look, Roosh disliked Sach! Sach prolly killed him out of spite last night_” WIFOM, and so i’d be wary if anyone pulled that sort of crap without giving thought to the latter aspect that it’d be EASY to lynch Sach that way (ie: see Buffy in the simpletown game- where she WAS right, but it was STILL WIFOM). So I think if Sach is town- then he’s the person the scum should try to lynch today. That or focus on the storyteller side of things- i still wanna know his results. Hopefully he didn’t waste it on me. Or the real cop checked him out last night, and knows the truth. We’ll have to wait and see. The person I kinda trusted the most? CiaS. I didn’t trust anyone, but I felt he had good reasons for going after Freud, and he was the best person on THAT lynch wagon with reasoning and such. Now if she’s town and he’s scum- well played. But I felt last night it was gonna come down to either ME or CiaS dying depending on how scum wanted to WIFOM and how scum wanted to play with the wagons. Since I’m dead, it’s gonna cast suspicion though on the rest of the Wanders Wagon a bit more, and you might be able to get a quick lynch out of someone in there. But we’ll see. Who knows why i died… As long as they took me out for a REASON, and not just a random vote, I’ll be happy. I like thinking i was a threat to the scum, and that in the veteran’s game, the first person the scum wanted out of it was ME. 😃 Just to feed my ego while i’m bored here now. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/46 "2008-05-25T03:09:07Z")
[QUOTE=USCDiver] Do you think in a game with recruitment, it would be unsportsmanlike to immediately name all the other scum if you were the Townie who was recruited? Does the fact that Vampires can revert to their original team when Dracula dies make that big of a difference from a sportsmanship angle? [/QUOTE] The reverting back to the original team thing is what makes it unsporting. If there was a recruitment Mafia game and I had the chance to win with town if the Mafia all were lynched- I’d sell them out in a heartbeat. And i’d keep track of players in future games that wouldn’t do so ( **Buffy** , you’ve been put on the list. :dubious: I’ll keep you in mind if I ever have to recruit someone, or if I wonder who’s been recruited). It’s that sorta thing that sucks with recruitment. Either change the alignment fully, or don’t have it work that way. But a “take back” clause REALLY sucks, as you don’t want to have that dilemma on your hands as a recruiter. That’s why in my batman game i advertised **NO Recruitment** , because There never was any. There were just mechanisms similar to recruitment but worked around it. IE: hidden win condition, hidden Alignments, or hidden agendas. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/47 "2008-05-25T03:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] What does everyone think of the latest development in the game, story’s “slip”? How about the heat that CIAS is getting, or sach? Also, if you were going to design the Dracula role so it would work well and be less controversial, how would you create it? I have to say I really like the basic idea of the role, but after watching the discussion I think we may have failed to execute it to it’s fullest potential. Let’s take the baby vamps not knowing who Drac is off the table. I don’t like that idea because I find it to be internally inconsistant with the color of the character. [/QUOTE] 1. Didn’t buy the “slip” was a SCUM slip. It was either intentional, or it was just a bad editing job. If he’s scum, he didn’t make a mistake like that. 2. Cias I trust more, Sach not as much. See my death post. 3. Dracula had such potential! Some of my ideas: - Have the recruits not know him is a decent idea. -(I woulda gone with this one) Just have there be no chance of going back. When you switch you switch for good. -Treat the Vampire like an SK- just have him kill at night. But if the Wolves EAT his victim (Ie: A double kill) THEN you get a dead Wolf. Heh. -Vampire is immune to wolf kills, and can only die by Town’s hand. That’d give the Scout incentive to find the Vampire and quickly. -Vampire… = add a Vampire Hunter role, he’s like an FBI- can basically do nothing, but say if Vampire or not a vampire, so he can’t find wolves. This would be better if there were 2 vampires or that’s it. - Have a priest who can protect players from vampirism, but then incorporate the “You don’t know who the head vampire is” - Treat Vampires like recruiting Masons, and have there be a limit on them- ie: Up to 3 vampires can be created, and they win with themselves and only themselves. HOWEVER, there can only be one with the Dracula head power. So if he dies, they can’t recruit anymore. -If you do that one, then having a vampire hunting would be cool, esp. if he had Vig powers too, ie: if he finds a vamp he kills them. -The Vampire Masons should have their own offsite board. Why? It increases loyalty. -Vampire Fight Club. -This one’s a joke. But its basically what I did with you NAF. Ie: You create an offsite board, you have Dracula. But then you tell the TOWN NOTHING abuot Vampires other than they exist or may exist. But no abilities or whatnot. But tell Dracula everything: ie: including they revert back to town if he dies. But then allow DRACULA to CHOOSE what he tells his new Vampires in the off site area. Ie: He doesn’t HAVE to TELL them that they revert back to town. So if they never know that, they’ll never do that. Or if he’s paranoid, let HIM come up with a worse fate: Ie: you all die if I die. Etc. That always adds a level of fun. I’d prolly go with that method actually: “First rule of Fight Club- you don’t talk about fight club” ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/48 "2008-05-25T03:21:03Z")
Hmmm… Maybe i want access to the spoilers? I dunno. What do you think NAF? ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/49 "2008-05-25T03:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=RoOsh] Hmmm… Maybe i want access to the spoilers? I dunno. What do you think NAF? [/QUOTE] [Dangles carrot]I got your access right here…[/dangles] ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/50 "2008-05-25T06:38:01Z")
[Quote=RoOSh] (ie: see Buffy in the simpletown game- where she WAS right, but it was STILL WIFOM). [/quote] You’re not kidding. You about got my ass lynched for sure. I’m still surprised I made it out of that alive. [Quote=RoOsh] That’s why in my batman game i advertised NO Recruitment, because There never was any. There were just mechanisms similar to recruitment but worked around it. IE: hidden win condition, hidden Alignments, or hidden agendas. [/quote] I can’t say that I read Batman (it was almost over by the time I first checked out the other board), but that sounds pretty awesome. I think I’m not a fan of recruitment so much. It just seems like a great big pain in the ass, but I think I would like a different sort of uncertainty, like with the hidden conditions you mentioned. I think your best idea, though, is the one you said was a joke. I think it’s pretty damn brilliant to let Dracula control the info drip. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/51 "2008-05-25T10:52:24Z")
btw, I’m a He… ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/52 "2008-05-27T09:49:59Z")
They’re not very active today. After everything that happened yesterday, there should be lots of avenues to explore today. Is it just down to the holidays or what? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/53 "2008-05-27T22:04:21Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] They’re not very active today. After everything that happened yesterday, there should be lots of avenues to explore today. Is it just down to the holidays or what? [/QUOTE] I’m wondering the same thing — what the hell is going on? This is like, “No discussion! Just vote!” Mafia. There sure seems like a shit-ton to talk about to this passive observer. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/54 "2008-05-27T22:10:00Z")
[QUOTE=Doctor Who] I’m wondering the same thing — what the hell is going on? This is like, “No discussion! Just vote!” Mafia. There sure seems like a shit-ton to talk about to this passive observer. [/QUOTE] I wonder if they realise that they have less than 48 hours to lynch someone. I will post a vote count soon and make sure they know that there has only been one vote so far toDay. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/55 "2008-05-27T22:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] I wonder if they realise that they have less than 48 hours to lynch someone. I will post a vote count soon and make sure they know that there has only been one vote so far toDay. [/QUOTE] Hopefully that prod will wake them up a bit! ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/56 "2008-05-28T04:10:58Z")
Spoilers May be ahead? Maybe Not. But I’ll box 'em anyways for the subs to ignore.0 Man… I’m starting to really dislike the way **Sach** plays. It’s too emotional and hostile at times. He’s frustrated and I understand that, but he’s taking it out on TOWNIES. And that’s something that always pings me. Sure I know a Townie is emotional when they defend themselves, but Townies being emotional when they ATTACK others? That’s just kinda odd to me. I dislike him saying he felt ALL 9 votes on Wanders was stupid, and that they all shoulda been lynched. That’s just a massive smudge against 9 players, and it’s not going to win him ANY favors in people taking his ideas more seriously. Scum can EASILY Manipulate a player like that, by just siding up and agreeing with him, or they can rile up those “smudged 9 players that deserve to be lynched” and just attack him for an easy lynch time. I felt my Lynch of Wanders was justified at the time I made it. It wasn’t the SMARTEST move perhaps, but I outlined the reasoning, AND I gave explanations of where I’d go from there. Towards the end, I was more suspicious of The other lynch wagon, and feeling that Wanders maybe townie. But I hate ASSUMPTIONS. So i was willing to have his blood on my hands if it meant I could find the scum later. For him to simply DECRY my ideas as stupid - well that’s NOT the way to work with me when I’m town the next day. I probably toDay would have started off curious against those who tried to move the bandwagon from Wanders and those who came into the middle of the Wanders Wagon (as end votes are moot if the vote’s pretty much done, and beginning votes are null tells). However, if I had read Sach’s fervor in his posting, I’d be irked, and I’d be wondering what’s his agenda. Because all he’s done so far is smudged the 9 voters- they’re Not ALL Scum. So calling them all foolish and deserving to be lynched is useless (and scummy to me), if he wanted to be helpful, he should ANALYZE the votes, see which ones are scummy and which ones are decent votes. But right now, I just get the vibe that he’s frustrated and cursing the darkness rather than bothering to light a candle. And that makes me suspicious, and want to lynch a player like that. As I dislike emotional players, and I dislike hostile players, as This IS a game. i play because I enjoy it. It’s sort of like the **Ui** lynch from Firefly- he was lynched simply because he was VERY Hostile, VERY Aggressive, and just all out spewing vitriolic statements rather than trying to help out the town. It’s anti-town behavior, and just un-fun behavior by its Nature. So I’m hoping **Sach** will settle down, or else he’s just begging to for an easy Lynch if he keeps up this hostility/aggression towards the MASSES. You don’t taunt the lynch mob, even if you are Right! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/57 "2008-05-28T04:12:05Z")
Heh, poor smiley in the sea of black. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/58 "2008-05-28T09:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=RoOsh] Heh, poor smiley in the sea of black. [/QUOTE] I agree completely with your spoiled comments. I hate to see a player get so emotionally involved that they can’t enjoy the game. It’s sometimes hard to remember that not everyone is going to see the game the same way, even looking at the same posts. I feel bad that **sachertorte** isn’t enjoying the game, but this seems to happen in just about every game for him. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/59 "2008-05-28T22:12:34Z")
So, heads up to the folks watching. We will probably need a sub. We have 5 posters who have not met the minimum posting threshold, and 3 of them only have one post so far toDay. As there are less than 24 hours left in this cycle, if you are interested in subbing in PM me AND USCDiver. We will be giving preference to “official subs” but other than that, it’s first come first served. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472/60 "2008-05-29T05:09:05Z")
I kinda want them all to die. It’d shake things up a bit. Oh wait. They wouldn’t find out what they were- Damn! Never mind… Though it’d start up the next mafia game quicker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cecilvania-the-forbidden-thread/449472.md?page=4)