# Ceiling Fixture **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564 "2012-05-10T23:11:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/1 "2012-05-10T23:11:42Z")
Last night a ceiling fixture in the laundry room crashed to the floor. The box, the light everything. Now I have a hole in the ceiling to work with. What is the easiest way to install a new box? What is the best way. I thought I would ask here rather than trust the folks at Home Depot to give the best advice. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/2 "2012-05-10T23:16:41Z")
any fixture that just uses drywall ceiling to hold it up is bound to come down sooner or later. is there wood to attach an electrical box to or just drywall ceiling? ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/3 "2012-05-10T23:30:48Z")
Sorry for not describing well. There is wood immediately adjacent to the hole in the ceiling, and a second piece of wood over the hole on top attached to the ceiling wood, so up 4 or 6 inches (did not check if it was 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 up there. Are they called studs when they are in the ceiling? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/4 "2012-05-10T23:32:27Z")
If it’s between studs, [this](http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/6/RACO-0936-rw-156315-240369.jpg) works well. You put it in the whole, turn the shaft and it cranks outwards until it’s pushing against the two studs. I have one of these holding up a very heavy fan. It’s been working just find for 7 years now. If it’s across a stud. [This](http://images.drillspot.com/pimages/1363/136336_300.jpg) is what you want. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/5 "2012-05-11T01:04:48Z")
If you don’t have access to an attic above, Joey’s links look good. Note, the horizontal things in the ceiling are called joists. There are sturdy braces designed to be be installed between 2 joists form above. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/6 "2012-05-11T01:21:44Z")
the wood the ceiling material is attached to is a ceiling joist. if i’m understanding your description then the wood over the top of the hole attached to the ceiling joist is a nailer for the fixture, which is a right method to attach a ceiling fixture box. i’m interpreting that you want to back mount a metal electrical box it would be good to find why the fixture, electrical box came crashing down. for it to come down shows that it was a hazardous situation. you want to not repeat the hazard. you want to correct any hazards. how big was the fixture, how heavy, was it only attached to the electrical box? find the beaker or fuse for this circuit, turn it off and every time you work on this fixture. put plastic/vinyl electrical tape on the wire ends, tape each wire individually. how does the cable and all the wires look, they should have good insulation and not looked stretched or damaged. measure the distance from the ceiling surface to the wood above the hole. you want to get a metal box with that depth and the other hole dimensions. you want to attach this box with wood screws (likely #10, 3/4" long). you want two screws for a small fixture into good wood (not chewed up from where the fixture detached). three or four screws for a heavy fixture. a long tube fixture needs additional support into the ceiling. get a home wiring book from the library and read on installing a ceiling fixture. it will show ceiling diagrams and what to do. my interpretation of what you want to do is different from Joey P. he is envisioning a different situation then i am. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/7 "2012-05-11T01:43:04Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > the wood the ceiling material is attached to is a ceiling joist. if i’m understanding your description then the wood over the top of the hole attached to the ceiling joist is a nailer for the fixture, which is a right method to attach a ceiling fixture box. i’m interpreting that you want to back mount a metal electrical box > my interpretation of what you want to do is different from Joey P. he is envisioning a different situation then i am. We are interpreting this differently. I’m picturing a hole in the drywall where everything was ripped out. A joist running right next to the hole (_wood immediately adjacent to the hole in the ceiling_) that the box may or may not have been nailed to and since he said “up 4-6 inches” I’m thinking the other piece of wood is the second story floor (_second piece of wood over the hole on top attached to the ceiling wood, so up 4 or 6 inches_) in which case it wouldn’t really have anything to do with this project. Of course, since I’ve never heard of ceiling wood, I’m not really sure. A picture may be in order. ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/8 "2012-05-11T01:47:48Z")
The fixture was light. A glass dome enclosing two bulbs. It appears that the fixture had been attached to the nailer with screws, and that the plastic box itself split in half along the line of two screws, and then fell, and the wires were not enough to hold everything up. It looks like things were done properly, and we just had a bad box (the house is only 15 years old). The wires hanging from the ceiling look in good shape. I am curious as to why we are always told to turn off the breaker. It seems as though the switch should be enough. I don’t recall ever seeing the light come on spontaneously. Perhaps it is to avoid “Daddy, it’s dark in here. I will turn on the light for you.” ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/9 "2012-05-11T01:58:45Z")
> [@dauerbach](#): > > I am curious as to why we are always told to turn off the breaker. It seems as though the switch should be enough. I don’t recall ever seeing the light come on spontaneously. Perhaps it is to avoid “Daddy, it’s dark in here. I will turn on the light for you.” That’s part of it. Another thing is because you never know if it was wired properly. For example. You’re supposed to switch the hot wire, but are you _sure_ someone didn’t put the switch on the neutral. Are there other wires in the box that you’re going to have to push out of the way, are you sure all those wire nuts are on tight, wouldn’t it be easier to just flip the breaker and not worry about it? The reasons to turn the breaker off go on and on…but… Personally, I don’t usually flip the breaker when I’m working on a switched wire. I just flip the switch and if there’s other people around I’ll put a piece of tape over it so it doesn’t get turned on by accident. But I can’t recommend that someone else does that (and neither can they). ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/10 "2012-05-11T02:02:01Z")
metal boxes are better for ceiling or heavy wall fixtures. it is easy for a person to inadvertently or accidentally to turn a switch on. a breaker has to purposely be turned on. wires should be connected with twisting and wire nuts. the wire connections if done correctly should hold a two bulb fixture up if the glass dome wasn’t a thick heavy one. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/11 "2012-05-11T02:16:53Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > If it’s between studs, [this](http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/6/RACO-0936-rw-156315-240369.jpg) works well. You put it in the whole, turn the shaft and it cranks outwards until it’s pushing against the two studs. I have one of these holding up a very heavy fan. It’s been working just find for 7 years now. Now that looks handy. ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/12 "2012-05-11T02:55:59Z")
This is on the second floor, so it is attic above. While some of the attic has plywood flooring, this part does not. And what I mostly see in the whole is lots and lots of blown in insulation. I will see if I can take a picture of the entire situation after I clean out some of the insulation. ---
**Author:** ![ardecila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c5a1d2/32.png) [@ardecila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ardecila)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/13 "2012-05-11T09:22:48Z")
A guy named _D. Auerbach_ with a question about _ceilings_? Next up: G. Harrison with a question about submarines. ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/14 "2012-05-11T12:22:17Z")
Not sure I get this. Are we talking about the Black Keys? ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/15 "2012-05-11T13:53:32Z")
If it’s a switch loop turning off the switch won’t remove power from all the wires at the fixture box. And exhibit A why I don’t use plastic boxes for anything more substantial than a porcelain lampholder. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/16 "2012-05-11T16:56:25Z")
> [@dauerbach](#): > > I am curious as to why we are always told to turn off the breaker. It seems as though the switch should be enough. I don’t recall ever seeing the light come on spontaneously. Perhaps it is to avoid “Daddy, it’s dark in here. I will turn on the light for you.” It seems more often than not, the power feeds directly to the light with a loop running to the switch. Thus one of the 4 wires at the light are always hot no matter what position the switch is in. Cut the breaker. ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/17 "2012-05-12T19:14:40Z")
I am trying to install an old work box into the hole in my ceiling. When I deploy the little wings the adjoining drywall crumbles. I thing I need a different kind of box. It should be noticed that a ceiling joist is right at the edge of the hole, and I can still see the large nails that had secured the old box. ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/18 "2012-05-12T20:00:01Z")
Alternatively, I know exactly where a joist is. Is there some bracket that can attach directly to the joist. What is the downside of not having the wires contained in a box? Is there an alternative to the box? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/19 "2012-05-12T20:12:19Z")
Didn’t you get advice on how to mount the electrical box in [your previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=651395)? ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564/20 "2012-05-12T20:21:49Z")
boxes with wings are crap. attach a metal box to wood. you can side mount a metal box with screws or rear mount it to wood above. where the wires come out of the cable has to be in a box. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ceiling-fixture/621564.md?page=2)