# Celestina, I don't mean to be a jerk, but . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920 "2005-02-02T02:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/61 "2005-02-03T22:02:33Z")
With so many genuine imbeciles milling about, why pit someone who chooses to writing in a dialect? Who’s next, Mark Twain for his egregious use of colloquialisms in giving voice to Huck and Jim? ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/62 "2005-02-03T23:05:32Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Why y’all hatin’ on **Celestina**? She’s just keepin’ it for reals, ya dig? Don’t hate the playa, hate the game. Sista girl’s got the chops to keep the beat, so all ya’ll can feel what she’s layin’ down. Excuse me, Stewardess. I speak jive. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/63 "2005-02-03T23:45:51Z")
> [@celestina](#): > > [a lot of oddly-spelled words] Like I said, it’s a minor complaint. I don’t want to be mean. But it makes it hard to read your posts and impossible to take them seriously. It’s annoying to see someone redirecting the attention onto themselves during posts on other topics. And while I don’t have enough technical knowledge of AAVE (African-American Vernacular English, which is the actual term in use in linguistic circles - no “Standard” form exists) to prove it outright, I’m not the only one who’s noticed that your gimmicky dialect is simply not believable because it doesn’t accurately describe the sound of - well - anyone. I assumed you weren’t black because the closest I can get is a bad romance novel version of a white Southern Belle on a plantation in antebellum times. If that’s how you choose to express yourself, so be it. But don’t complain when everyone else ignores your posts as a result. It’s too bad, really, because you seemed to have things to say tucked away amidst all the "I declare"s and "fella"s. ---
**Author:** ![Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9dc877/32.png) [@Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightwatch_Trailer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/64 "2005-02-04T00:09:42Z")
> [@Silver Fire](#): > > So, **Nightwatch** … you still think so? I don’t know what to think anymore. I’m going to rock back and forth in the corner now. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/65 "2005-02-04T00:22:24Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > With so many genuine imbeciles milling about, why pit someone who chooses to writing in a dialect? Who’s next, Mark Twain for his egregious use of colloquialisms in giving voice to Huck and Jim? What the fuck does Mark Twain’s fiction have to do with this? Twain didn’t write like that in his news paper articles or his editorials. If he did, no one would have taken them seriously. Haj ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/66 "2005-02-04T00:29:41Z")
It sounds rather annoyingly phony to me, especially when you look at her old posts that read like [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=1702292#post1702292): > [@celestina](#): > > Well, far be it for me to know what is going on amongst the leaders of the Arab/Muslim nations, but I think that their hesitance to really take a stand is indicative of the complexity of their countries’ internal governing policies, dealing with influential businessmen (e.g. OPEC) the interaction amongst the different sects of Islam within their countries and across borders, AND the complexity of negotiating government and religion with other Arab/Muslim countries. To top all this off they have to deal with countries who have systems of governance that aren’t mediated by religion. So there’s a clash because the lines between government and religious practice are blurred. Also, the affectation seems to fade in and out within posts. In one paragraph, she sounds like she just stepped out of a Loony Toon. In the next, she says something like: > [@](#): > > Let’s get some of my sentences and parse them for SBEV rule violations. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/67 "2005-02-04T00:39:15Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > What the fuck does Mark Twain’s fiction have to do with this? Twain didn’t write like that in his news paper articles or his editorials. If he did, no one would have taken them seriously. > > Haj You are making the assumption that the posting on the SDMB is equivalent to being a paid journalist. Some people apparently are taking it a bit more lightly than that. I don’t mind; but I understand that is just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/68 "2005-02-04T01:23:22Z")
As Ben & Jerry always say: “If it ain’t fun, why do it?” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/69 "2005-02-04T01:31:34Z")
Maybe she has split personality disorder. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/70 "2005-02-04T01:32:24Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > You are making the assumption that the posting on the SDMB is equivalent to being a paid journalist. Some people apparently are taking it a bit more lightly than that. I don’t mind; but I understand that is just my opinion. We’re talking about a discussion in GD, not some MPSIMS finish the story thread. It’s a fiction vs. non-fiction thing. It’s especially annoying because the whole thing is a put on. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/71 "2005-02-04T01:44:56Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > As Ben & Jerry always say: “If it ain’t fun, why do it?” Ironically enough, the actual slogan was: “If it’s not fun, why do it?” ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/72 "2005-02-04T02:54:47Z")
> [@Nightwatch Trailer](#): > > I don’t know what to think anymore. I’m going to rock back and forth in the corner now. HAHA! > [@celestina](#): > > blahblahblah Well, since you’re keeping your sense of humor, I guess now is a good time to point out that I **hate** your location. It’s really long. That is all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/73 "2005-02-04T10:28:32Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > We’re talking about a discussion in GD, not some MPSIMS finish the story thread. It’s a fiction vs. non-fiction thing. And GD doesn’t have its fare share of nutters and simpletons? In comparison, writing in dialect seems more like a “not my cuppa tea” type offense than pit-able offense. I agree that it is affected. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/74 "2005-02-04T15:01:09Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > And GD doesn’t have its fare share of nutters and simpletons? Indeed it does. Why sound like one when you’re not. > [@](#): > > In comparison, writing in dialect seems more like a “not my cuppa tea” type offense than pit-able offense. I agree that it is affected. I totally agree but since someone bothered to Pit her, I decided to add my two cents. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/75 "2005-02-05T00:18:05Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > And GD doesn’t have its fare share of nutters and simpletons? In comparison, writing in dialect seems more like a “not my cuppa tea” type offense than pit-able offense. I agree that it is affected. Maybe, but since she was saying, “Why are people ignoring me?” perhaps she needs to take a second look? ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/76 "2005-02-06T00:05:22Z")
[Amidst a frenzy of paparazzi and cameras flashing, celestina enters the Press Conference room and takes a seat at the table] First, I must say thank you to those who have taken the time to defend my sadly maligned character. **{{{{Friar Ted, Johanna, Talon Karrde, Waverly, WaryAri, FinnAgain, continuity eror, yosemite, Silver Fire, Stranger On A Train, Zoe, Green Bean, gobear, Aesiron, monstro, and Tir Tinuviel :-D}}}}** Second, **Excalibre** , you ought to be ashamed of yourself! :mad: What kind of Pit host are you? You’ve not provided any kind of virtual refreshments for visitors to this thread. Folks, there’s some virtual cheese and crackers and wine lover there in the corner next to **Nightwatch Trailer**. But, you’d best hurry before **Nightwatch Trailer** drinks up all the wine. 😉 Third, **Silver Fire** , what can I say. I exult in the ridiculous, and this thread is on some levels ridiculous. 😃 As for my location, well I’ve been trying to get off Earth for a long time now, but I’m having trouble fixing my busted spaceship. **midget** , who is AliG? Now to respond to specific comments/complaints: 1. In the “Ask the Shia Nizari Ismaili Muslima” thread, I pointed out that folks seemed to be ignoring my questions. This was addressed in particular to **Sarah\_W** because in the original and now removed “Ask the Muslim Woman” thread, there were so many feathers flying that my questions were initially skipped, and **Sarah\_W** never did answer them before the thread got shut down. When in the original thread, I noted that my questions hadn’t been answered all of the Muslimas _except_ **Sarah\_W** _did_ eventually answer my questions. In the “Ask the Shia Nizari Ismaili Muslima” thread, I prefaced my post to make sure that if the feathers got to flying again, that the questions I’d posted wouldn’t be missed. I can understand how with so many questions being asked, it can be easy to miss what I’d posted, but I don’t think it’s a crime to note that my questions hadn’t been answered _in a thread where folks are offering to answer questions_. So, let me spell this out as plainly as I can. That comment about my posts being ignored applied only to the two “Ask the Muslima” threads. I would therefore appreciate it if folks would stop taking my posts out of context and ascribing to them ulterior motives of attention-seeking that were not there and that do not apply to any other threads. 2. Folks are wondering why I’ve been posting in Southern/BEV? Well, I have of late been thinking a lot about dialect. I am Southern. I am Black. I am proud of my heritage. I have facility with Standard American English(SAE), Southern and BEV(SBEV), and often I code switch and code mix in those languages as well as in Spanish, Japanese, Drunkenese, and French too. On the SDMB I’ve posted in different fora in different languages. I do find it rather interesting that based on what amounts to a handful out of over a thousand posts, I’ve been judged as “fake.” I assure you I do have a Southern accent, and depending on whom I’m with, comfort level, intoxication and/or sleep deprivation it comes out in the durndest places. As **Johanna & FinnAgain** both noted, I am extending my range of voice to convey a sense of warmth and humor because they best reflect my personality. This is not an attempt to be fake since I do use constructions like “fellas” and “I do declare” and “I ‘clare” IRL. My “I do declares” are a way of me signifyin’ on being a Southern belle because in some ways I was raised to be one. Did the whole debutante thing and all, though I was kicking and screaming the whole time. I don’t have split personality disorder. I am multilingual. I love language and the power of words, and I am beginning to see how unfortunately many folks have an irrational bias against dialect and tend to associate stupidity with dialect. **Since this is a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, I would direct those folks to examine the ignorance and intolerance that they are displaying.** 3. **Guinastasia** cited this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4667850](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4667850) Y’all need to let that shit go Nightlight & Co, as a fellow sista what folks continually mistake for being white when I talk on the phone–sometimes to my complete surprise they don’t think I’m Southern neither–and as someone whose black friends just put up with my occasional misunderstandings of slang–I had to get someone to explain “bling-bling” to me too–I feel your pain. I don’t believe anyone’s ever called me a brainiac to my face, and usually my friends just shake their heads and laugh with me over my otherworldliness. However, you just got to stop worrying about all this nonsense. You are what you decide to be. I’ve personally decided to be a sista from anotha planet, and I’m perfectly happy with it . . . Well, when I answer the phone and when I’m around folks I don’t know, I revert to SAE. Folks are also surprised when I code switch and code mix in the course of a conversation. For example, when I talk about my cat, I revert to the dialect I use with my cat. That surprises a few people. 😃 Also, I don’t know the latest urban BEV hiphop terms because I am from the South, I don’t listen to rap/hiphop that much, nor do I watch those music video channels like BET or MTV. So, yes, I occasionally ask folks to explain some of these terms. Doesn’t make me any less black or southern. 1. I believe I’ve been called silly. Well my response to that is: “silly” comes from the Old English word “saelig” = to be blessed or holy. Muchas gracias. 2. I do find it rather ironic that at the turn of the century from the 1800s to the 1900s that white folks didn’t want to hear Paul Laurence Dunbar publish in anything but dialect, when Dunbar most wanted to publish in SAE. Now at the turn of the century from the 1900s to the 2000s, folks get all hot under the collar if a black person posts in dialect because she wants to. Hmmm. 3. Folks have said that my dialect sounds “fake” and is “badly written.” I would ask these so-called experts in Southern/BEV to parse some of my sentences and point out where they violate the rules of Southern/BEV. Educate me, please. 4. As for the Foghorn Leghorn and Scarlett O’Hara associations, are y’all sure you’re not projecting what the media presents as Southern accents on to what I write because you don’t know any better? Again, I ask you to point out where in my sentences I sound like Foghorn Leghorn or Scarlett O’Hara because that is not how I sound. 5. As far as those folks who don’t want to read my posts no matter what language I put them in, well it’s your loss. But, I understand. I half read what folks posts around here because I don’t have the time. I have a life and work to do. C’est la vie. Y’all have a nice day. [celestina exits the Press Conference] ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/77 "2005-02-06T00:26:27Z")
I, also, wouldn’t have pitted you over it, but I do find the dialect in your posts makes me take them less seriously. It’s not because I have any problem with your dialect, but because conventions of written English are to not include dialect to the extent that you do. Go ahead and type however you want, I really do support you in that. I just find it unfortunate that I giggle uncontrollably at otherwise very nice posts. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/78 "2005-02-06T00:34:57Z")
Huh. **celestina’s** black. I wonder who I am thinking of. Not Westmoreland. Worse. Washington County. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/79 "2005-02-06T00:37:17Z")
**LaurAnge** , thanks, hon. I don’t understand why you think it should be unfortunate that you giggle at my posts. I intend to spread love, warmth, and joy while educating folks because this world is such a mean, sad, depressing place where folks can be so mean to each other. Why shouldn’t we take a little time out to giggle? So, I say giggle away. Dare to be saelig. 😃 Oh, I see a typo in that last post, but actually I find it rather amusing. Apparently along with the wine and **Nightwatch Trailer** , I’ve place a wine lover. Well, I guess if he doesn’t mind, y’all can enjoy drinking him too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920/80 "2005-02-06T00:51:11Z")
> [@celestina](#): > > I love language and the power of words, and I am beginning to see how unfortunately many folks have an irrational bias against dialect and tend to associate stupidity with dialect. **Since this is a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, I would direct those folks to examine the ignorance and intolerance that they are displaying.** Hmmm. Well, I personally never said I thought it made you sound stupid. And I definitely don’t associate dialect with stupidity. In fact, people who do are one of the _major_ hot buttons in my life. One of the few things related to the discipline I’m studying that gets me truly steamed. In my capacities as linguist, “writer”, and avid reader, I love the seemingly infinite possibilities and variation natural language makes available to us. You are absolutely right that there is zero basis to a claim of the superiority or inferiority of one or another way of speaking, but where language is being used for communication (as it is here) and not art, nonstandard usage can impede the very goal of speaking at all. I certainly don’t consider your writing style a pittable offense, but I decided to join in and say that, yes, I find your habit of posting in dialect jarring. You have chosen a code here (apparently only fairly recently) that is not shared with other posters. When you think about it, what you’re really doing is forcing us to switch out of the code we’re using to read _every other poster’s words_, and into one that is not only different to what we’ve been using, but may not be natural to us. This is not an effective way to communicate, and since you have admirable control of the dialect of English everybody else is using, it’s a bit odd that you choose to use one we aren’t. I, for one, have ended up choosing not to break my rhythm, and so am exposed to your posts (with the exception of this thread) only where they are quoted by others. I doubt this matters much to you (nor should it), I’m just saying. (There is also the fact that a certain amount of what you do is the attempt to reflect purely phonological differences in written language, which doesn’t make much sense to me where the sound of what you’re saying isn’t important. “in’” instead of “ing”? What’s the point?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celestina-i-dont-mean-to-be-a-jerk-but/287920.md?page=5)