# Celibacy before/outside of marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 27, 2000, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775 "2000-09-27T17:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/21 "2000-09-29T14:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Do any of these religions which prohibit premarital sex actually provide good reasons, or do they just rely on circular logic? Remember that even moderatly reliable birth control was non-exisitiant before the 1960s–until then sex=babies pretty quickly. In a pre-industrial society single parents were a serious burden, and the comunity could only support a limited number of single women with children. This is why the bible is so concerned with widows and orphans–to be in that condition was to be destitute and misrable at best. Under thes circumstances a strong prohibition on having children without a public and binding contract from a man guarenteeing his support of those children was to the benefit of both the potential mothers and the community as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/22 "2000-09-29T14:24:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keeve \* > \*\*In Judaism, procreation is not the only legitimate reason for sexual activity. An equally compelling reason for sexual activity is that it tends to strengthen the bond betwen husband and wife. In fact, if conditions are such that sexual activity might weaken their bond (for example, if one is angry at the other) then relations are prohibited. > \*\* FTR, while I support the spirit of **Keeve** ’s post, I am totally unfamiliar with the idea that Judaism proscribes relations between spouses that are angry at one another. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/23 "2000-09-29T15:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > \*\*FTR, while I support the spirit of **Keeve** ’s post, I am totally unfamiliar with the idea that Judaism proscribes relations between spouses that are angry at one another. \*\* It’s buried down in the details, and an argument could be made that it’s merely discouraged rather than actually forbidden, but the idea is definitely there. It is mentioned as one example of several situations to be avoided precisely because of this idea that sex is intended to strengthen the marriage rather than weaken it. Other examples include when one (or both) spouses have decided to divorce, or when one (or both) is drunk or asleep. I chose to post the “angry” example first, because it can be viewed as akin to rape. ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/24 "2000-09-29T17:18:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by pluto \* > > \*\*I doubt this will surprise anyone, but the Mormon church regards any sexual relations outside of marriage as sinful. \*\* > > That’s true, Pluto. Then again, they’re the only religion that gives you an abacus at your wedding just so you can keep TRACK of the wives 😃 > > \ The previous paragraph was said as parody only. It was not meant to insult, denigrate or offend any member of said above religious group. \ \*\* Two comments: 1. I have forwarded your “parody” to the Destroying Angels Enforcement Committee for review. Please specify whether you would prefer to be destroyed by a) fire from heaven, b) pestilence, c) famine, or d) being talked to death by Mormon missionaries. 2. When the anti-polygamy laws were passed to outlaw this practice, they specifically stated that it was only unlawful to “cohabit” with more than one woman if you were actually married to them both. The objection wasn’t the number of sexual partners you had (althought that was apparently the basis for the moral outrage), you just couldn’t legally bind yourself to more than one. So the Mormons were caught between a rock and a hard place – they couldn’t stay married (that was against the law), they couldn’t divorce and stay together (that was a sin). ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/25 "2000-09-29T19:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keeve \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > > \*\*…I am totally unfamiliar with the idea that Judaism proscribes relations between spouses that are angry at one another. \*\* > > It’s buried down in the details… but the idea is definitely there. It is mentioned as one example…\*\* Where? The Talmud? If so, where? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/26 "2000-09-29T19:08:15Z")
Try Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim, chapter 240. (Just a guess, but most stuff on that subject is there.) From that page, you ought to have access to the earlier, Talmudic sources. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/27 "2000-09-29T19:21:52Z")
[JEWSPEAK] **Chaim** , Chapter 240? That’s ummm… Reish Mem, right? I’ve _never_ been good at that! 😉 Thanks for the tip… now I have something to do during the Piyutim tomorrow. [/JEWSPEAK] _Now back to your regular program…_ ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/28 "2000-09-29T21:10:06Z")
[/QUOTE] Two comments: 1. I have forwarded your “parody” to the Destroying Angels Enforcement Committee for review. Please specify whether you would prefer to be destroyed by a) fire from heaven, b) pestilence, c) famine, or d) being talked to death by Mormon missionaries. 2. When the anti-polygamy laws were passed to outlaw this practice, they specifically stated that it was only unlawful to “cohabit” with more than one woman if you were actually married to them both. The objection wasn’t the number of sexual partners you had (althought that was apparently the basis for the moral outrage), you just couldn’t legally bind yourself to more than one. So the Mormons were caught between a rock and a hard place – they couldn’t stay married (that was against the law), they couldn’t divorce and stay together (that was a sin). \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Gnobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Gnobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnobody)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/29 "2000-09-30T04:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > **Remember that even moderatly reliable birth control was non-exisitiant before the 1960s–until then sex=babies pretty quickly…** I don’t know if this is quite right, and it definitely isn’t the root of dehement anti-sex themes in the writings of the Church Fathers. Firstly, birth control. It has always existed. Only recently, however, has it been considered a male’s responsibility. From crocodile dung in Ancient Egypt to squeezed lemon halves in the later middle ages, women have historical put an odd array of things into their vaginas to prevent pregnancy. While grotesque by our standards, these were definitely at least somewhat reliable. There were always lots of methods both before and after coitus. Don’t let a millenium of history and literature penned solely by monks fool you into thinking that no one had sex. Secondly, the early Church was extremely anti-sex and anti-woman. This is well documented in the writings of the early Church Fathers. All of them considered chastity higher than marriage. (Chastity meaning abstinence, which I what I thought it always meant despite someone’s post here). Part of this, at least, can be explained by the fact that these people thought the end was near, St. Paul among others never expected to die. They were bracing themselves for the coming of God, and devoting their lives to it. You can imagine this epic tension in the air. Sex becomes kind of meaningless. With love, Little Mr. Wanna-Be Scholar ---
**Author:** ![TheNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@TheNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheNerd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/30 "2000-09-30T04:32:32Z")
Remember kids, it’s only premarital sex if you’re planning on getting married. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/31 "2000-09-30T05:48:27Z")
I know that Hindus are very concerned with sexual purity for women. Non-virgin women are typically unable to marry. If a husband finds out his wife was not a virgin, murders are not uncommon. Then we have all those ideas about how a wife should commit suicide if her husband dies. And Hinduism is paganism! I’m just trying to even the scales. Some people think that Christianity is somehow obsessed with sexual purity while other religions are reasonable and sane. Nope. There are many many many puritantical non-Christian religions. ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/32 "2000-09-30T07:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > 2) raises a wretched problem. How was it resolved, Oh Outer Planet of Knowledge? 😃 > > Cartooniverse To continue our intermittent hijack: Some fled to Mexico, others went into hiding, but for the most part, once the government was convinced that the church was 1) no longer advocating polygamy and 2) not sanctioning any new polygamous unions, those who were already involved were allowed to quietly continue without interference. Those who had been jailed were released and the church’s property (which had been siezed by the federal government) was returned. As you are no doubt aware, there are pockets of polygamists still extant in Utah and nearby states. Many of them believe that, because the church changed its policy due to pressure from the government, they are the ones who are obeying God’s law and that the “official” Mormon church is apostate. The feeling is, or course, mutual and the church vigorously defends itself against them, but there’s not much the church can do except to excommunicate them (which they don’t recognize anyway). Local law officials are usually unable to enforce the anti-polygamy laws because they don’t often actually legally marry more than one wife; the “marriages” are private religious ceremonies not sanctioned by the state. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/33 "2000-09-30T14:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Firstly, birth control. It has always existed. Only recently, however, has it been considered a male’s responsibility. From crocodile dung in Ancient Egypt to squeezed lemon halves in the later middle ages, women > have historical put an odd array of things into their vaginas to prevent pregnancy. While grotesque by our > standards, these were definitely at least somewhat reliable. There were always lots of methods both before and > after coitus. Don’t let a millenium of history and literature penned solely by monks fool you into thinking that no one had sex. The fact is, we have no idea if these techniques were reliable. Considering how dangerous and painful child birth was before the modern era, and how high birth rates remained, I think it is likely that they worked about as well as the home techniques used today by teenagers. I have read literature on pre-modern birthcontrol techniques, and frankly, those that were not highly skeptical struck me as being more political pieces about the great 'ole days of the matriarchy than serious scholorly works. Furthermore, I never meant to imply that people didn’t have sex; merely that when they did have sex there was a high degree of pressure on them to get married, and thus shuift the burden of caring for the child away from the community as a whole. On the misogyny of church fathers: while they were certainly mysogynistic, you have to look at this in the wider context of the time. A commen element in Eastern religions, from Stoicim to the mystery religions, was that physical pleasure is highly suspect. Many groups went as far as the Manachiens, who held that fleash bad, spirit good. Sex is a phsysical pleasure, so it was on the bad, or at least the “necisary evil” list for many of these groups, but so was flaverful food, comfortable clothes, and in some exteme cases, anything that wasn’t living on a pillar in the desert. Lastly, it is not enough to say “Church faters hated women because they were patriachial bastards.” People have reasons for what they do and believe. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/34 "2000-10-02T01:20:25Z")
Pagan vs Christian: Allegedly, one of the reasons for the strong prohibition against sex outside of the marriage is that in patrilineal societies (where all inheritance is reckoned from the male side of the family), sex had to be inside the marriage in order to be certain of the lineage of the child. If I’m not mistaken, Hinduism is patrilineal? ---
**Author:** ![jamesglewisf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a5b964/32.png) [@jamesglewisf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jamesglewisf)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/35 "2000-10-02T01:48:22Z")
By the way, neither Judaism nor Christianity teach that sex inside of marriage is just for pro-creation. Sex within the confines of marriage is a gift from God and for the pleasure of the couple. Here are some verses: Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times; be exhilarated always with her love. Song of Solomon 4:5-6 “Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle, which feed among the lilies. Until the cool of the day when the shadows flee away, I will go my way to the mountain of myrrh and to the hill of frankincense.” How about a French kiss that outdated France by about 1700 years! Song of Solomon 4:11 “Your lips, my bride, drip honey; honey and milk are under your tongue, and the fragrance of your garments is like the fragrance of Lebanon.” Song of Solomon 4:15-16 “You are a garden spring, a well of fresh water, and streams flowing from Lebanon. Awake, O north wind, and come, wind of the south; make my garden breathe out fragrance, let its spices be wafted abroad. May my beloved come into his garden and eat its choice fruits!” Song of Solomon 7:7-9 “Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I said, ‘I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit stalks.’ Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine! It goes down smoothly for my beloved, flowing gently through the lips of those who fall asleep.” ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775/36 "2000-10-02T18:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gnobody \* > Secondly, the early Church was extremely anti-sex and anti-woman. This is well documented in the writings of the early Church Fathers. All of them considered chastity higher than marriage. (Chastity meaning abstinence, which I what I thought it always meant despite someone’s post here). Part of this, at least, can be explained by the fact that these people thought the end was near, St. Paul among others never expected to die. They were bracing themselves for the coming of God, and devoting their lives to it. I think the gist of what you’re saying is right, without going as far as saying the Church was “anti-sex and anti-woman”. Strictures against fornication are equally applied to men and women. You’re right that ideally men were to avoid marriage and devote themselves singlemindedly to following God, but if they were unduly tempted they should marry to avoid fornication. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-before-outside-of-marriage/34775.md?page=1)