# Celibacy until marriage... a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2000, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772 "2000-07-16T23:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PRISM02](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@PRISM02](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PRISM02)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/21 "2000-07-17T08:55:31Z")
Just for the sexually challenged, I’d like to point out something. Sex before marrage **does not** mean moving in with her. Different aspects of a relationship. There is sex. (Which is fun.) There is moving in with each other. (Which can also be fun.) And there is moving in with each other and having sex - presumably with each other. (Which is fun also.) ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/22 "2000-07-17T09:09:15Z")
OK, another word form yet another of the “religous minority” here- re sex before marriage\> It’s OK, but only if you are commited, and in love\*. If you are not BOTH there is too much chance of a misunderstanding and hurting someone. I suppose if both of you really know and fully understand it is “just for fun”, and nobody will get hurt, well- as long as nobody DOES get hurt. “Do unto others…” - Some groups used to practice “handfasting”, which is an in between step between engagement & marriage, sex was OK then, as long as no pregnancy resulted, and if it did, you were married, immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/23 "2000-07-17T11:45:31Z")
When I was 12 or 13 years old, I made the conscious decision that the gift I would give my husband on our wedding night was a good sex life. I was still a virgin when most of my friends had already given it up; I was 16 before I was kissed and 17 1/2 before I had sex, but I went about trying to learn and practice before I got married. I got in the habit of asking people what they liked and didn’t like, and finding out what differences there were between people. When I got married, I already knew that not everyone likes the same things, and that you’ll never know what they DO want until you ask, and I wasn’t shy about asking. I can’t imagine having gone to my “marriage bed” (which was just like my “single person bed,” only in a different house) without the practical knowledge that I had. Yes, I could have learned all of this without losing my virginity, but I find it difficult to imagine being a virgin and still saying things like, “Do you like having your balls rubbed while you’re being given head?” It just usually doesn’t come up (no pun intended) during your typical pre-wedding consultation. ---
**Author:** ![PRISM02](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@PRISM02](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PRISM02)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/24 "2000-07-17T12:05:02Z")
Hmmm. (Cough.) Ahh, **Hamadryad** , are you still married? If not, wanna date? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/25 "2000-07-17T14:13:26Z")
> [@](#): > > You have to have sex before marriage. If you don’t it’s like buying a car without test driving it. > > Sex is part if any meaningful relationship. Any relationship will not be truly meaningful unless they have sex. It’s part of sharing each other. It’s not some dirty thing which religious types have made it up to be. It should not have anything to do with marriage which is an artificial human legal thing. Two small points about this and other, similar, posts. 1. The sexual aspects of a relationship are frequently intertwined with the other aspects of the relationship. These can change significantly with marriage and over time. 2. One advantage in having BOTH parties be virgins is that neither will a set of expectations which need to be fulfilled. Not so where one or both have experienced other encounters or relationship which may have been better in some ways than the present one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/26 "2000-07-17T14:16:41Z")
**MGibson** : > [@](#): > > Well let’s look at the evidence. Do couples who live together before marriage have a lower rate of divorce? I’m sure someone out there has to have some information about this. I just recently got engaged and I can tell you I would not move in with her until after we were married. Marc, congratulations on your engagement! See **tomndebb~**'s post earlier in this thread for a discussion of a study on this very subject. ---
**Author:** ![mblackwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@mblackwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mblackwell)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/27 "2000-07-17T14:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > \*\*Ultimately, it depends on the people (ugh, I HATE it when a debate comes down to that!) Some people can go at it like hamsters rather casually, and still have a very strong relationship. Some people can be extremely skittish, and any sort of sexual encounter could psychologically harm them. Both are extreme examples, and everyone lies somewhere in between. > > I completely disagree with the “Sex is part if any meaningful relationship” comment. I have dozens of very meaningful (and, sadly entirely platonic… I’m platonic-man!) relationships without the slightest hint of sex. Purely my opinion: People who believe sex is necessary for good relationships are thinking too much with their “little” head (figuratively speaking for women, of course). \*\* I agree wiht that 100% ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/28 "2000-07-17T14:35:15Z")
years ago i read i piece in ann landers that i found toally hilarious. a woman married a man that she considered a “nice guy” all the other men were trying to get into her pants. (wonder why?) after she married this man he told her to take a cold shower and lie perfectly still in bed. she was writing to ann to find out what to do after marrying a necrophiliac. ROFL! Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/29 "2000-07-17T15:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > \*\*So every sexual encounter is a net loss? Unless there’s rape or abuse involved, I don’t believe it’s anything of the sort. Sex, like most life experiences, causes you to grow and learn – regardless of whether things work out with any one partner. \*\* I agree 100%. I also wanted to say that I think it is more courageous to get out there knowing what you want and going for it, rather than hiding behind a religious group or your parents’ wishes. I sincerely hope that people who choose chastity have examined their motives carefully, and are making their choices out of a desire for self-fulfillment, not fear. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/30 "2000-07-17T15:44:11Z")
I guess I’d like to point out the difference between celibacy/abstinence at the one pole, and promiscuity at the other. Having sex before marriage with a person whom you strongly think you might want to marry, you are living with and sharing expenses and space, etc… that’s one thing. Having one-night stands or sex with everyone you “like”, regardless of relationships, that’s something else. The “locket” analogy quoted above, IMHO, is very apt. If Johnny had given lockets to one or two women, that would be one thing. In the story as told, there are dozens, and that’s something quite else. Need to distinguish sex from love, I guess. On a personal note, my wife and I had sex after we were engaged but before we were married, and have never had sex outside our marriage, and our 29th anniversary was last month. ---
**Author:** ![Kingpin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@Kingpin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kingpin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/31 "2000-07-17T15:48:49Z")
I have chosen to be chaste. Not necessarily until marriage, but until I find the one person who will spend the rest of their life with me. I also don’t consider myself sexually inexperienced. Yes, you could say I’m naive, but I disagree. I recently dated someone who slept with a few (probably too many) men and she said she had no problem with our sexual relations, although it didn’t involve the full nine yards (that’s right nine yards). Nobody has taken into consideration the facts of pregnancy or STDs which can never be avoided 100% if you’re engaging in sex. I’m only 20 and I don’t want to be a father. I am a Christian, also, but a fairly liberal one. That’s for another post, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/32 "2000-07-17T16:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by CKDextHavn \* > \*\* > The “locket” analogy quoted above, IMHO, is very apt. If Johnny had given lockets to one or two women, that would be one thing. In the story as told, there are dozens, and that’s something quite else._\* I honestly don’t think it matters. Sex is an empty vessel - it only has whatever meaning you put into it. Yes, people who assign sex this momentous, magical significance would feel cheated over “wasting” their virginity. But many people who have sex solely for pleasure are really not the empty, lonely everyone likes to think they are. Often, they are dynamic and lively individuals who live life to the fullest and feel more fulfilled than the “purest” prude who is only acting that way because their pastor told them to and their parents shook their finger at them one too many times. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/33 "2000-07-17T16:44:51Z")
Allright, Sani, I’ll answer you as best I can. It depends on YOU. There’s two ways to look at it. Firstly, you can go out spelunking every weekend, you’ll have a blast, for sure. (no pun intended) Or you can resist the urge, and wait till you meet The One. Each has it’s own benefit. In the first instance, well, sex just feels good. It’s an enjoyable experience. And, with more experience, you get to take that extra prowess to the marital bed with you. On the other hand, if you and The One get to experience it with each other for the first time, I think it adds that much more to the relationship. And, if anyone tells you that you might not be good in the sack without the experience, I say bullshit. All’s you gotta do is pay attention to what our lady wants. Give it to her, and she’ll be as happy as you are. So, it comes down to a sacrifice/reward scenario, and it’s different for each of us. Myself, I wish I had waited. Others feel the opposite, and that’s fine. You’ll come to your own decision, and I hope that you make the one that’s right for **you** , not the one that’s right for the rest of us. Good luck, and I’ll still rent you a hooker when I come to Tampa, if you so desire. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/34 "2000-07-17T18:20:45Z")
Nah, but thanks anyway, Cyni. I don’t trust these Florida women. 😉 Er, Michi, where are you going? Wait, come back!.. Ah well. I think that another important thing to note is the difference in how both genders perceive virginity - as either a virtue or a burden. Of course, I’m speaking in generalities, and this doesn’t hold true for everyone, but what I’ve seen is a tendency for people to say to a woman that’s a virgin at 25, “Wow, you’re so virtuous and strongwilled”, whereas if it’s a guy, you’d say “Man, go out and find a chick already!” This certainly seems unfair, but it’s probably due to a psychological reaction to the fact that the hymen (or its absence) offers a sense of permanence for women after they lose their virginity, whereas men don’t have a corresponding symbol for their virginity. Also, the fact that the man has a more dominating role in the sex act (being the penetrator, assuming that we’re not factoring toys in here 😉 ) means he might have fewer reservations or issues with losing his virginity. Uh, so, yeah. I think I just won my own sub-argument. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/35 "2000-07-17T18:56:38Z")
I decided that I would lead a chaste life until my marriage night. At which time I would give my husband the best gift I could…my innocence. (PUKE!) All that changed about 4 months after I started living with my BF. And I am SO happy it did change. The first time was without a doubt, the worse night of my life. He was gentle, he was considerate, he moved slow. But it hurt, and I bled all over the bed, and it was not fun. That doesn’t sound like something I’d want on my wedding night. I decided it was ok to make love with my BF, because I plan on marrying him. I can’t even imagine having sex with somebody I don’t love or having casual sex. So, the way I see it is, making love before marriage is probably a good thing, having sex before marriage is not\* \*I’m not making a judgement call on anybody. This is what I mean for ME! ---
**Author:** ![SoxFan59](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@SoxFan59](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoxFan59)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/36 "2000-07-17T19:08:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Rutgers University has done a couple of studies on cohabitation as part of their ongoing study of marriage that have produced statistics showing that co-habitants have a higher separation and divorce rate than those who did not co-habitate before marriage. > > Of course, James Dobson and his like-minded religious partisans have jumped on this with delighted cries of “See! We told you so!”, ignoring the point **Drain** mentioned that it is quite possible that those who do not cohabitate and those who do not divorce are inhibited from both courses of action by religious beliefs. (The study also mentions that cohabitation during a limited-term engagement period does not show the (statistically) adverse effects demonstrated by long-term and serial cohabitations.) > > The Rutgers group has been careful to not draw unsubstantiated opinions from the data, but, technically, the data shows cohabitation to correspond slightly more consistently with marriages that end in divorce. I am not aware of any direct ties (formal or informal) between the Rutgers group and any religious or other special-interest groups. > \*\* Just a comment: Most current statistical surveys of those with “strong religious beliefs” (i.e. evangelical Christians) have a marriage failure/divorce rate equal to the general population, that is, somewhere around 50% (I don’t have a citation for that, but I’ll look). Thus, the concept of people being inhibited from divorcing because of religious beliefs would seem to be a non-factor in this argument. Of course, the flip is probably also true (as demonstrated by some testimonials on the board) that stated religious belief may have little to do with the concept of cohabitation or pre-marital sex either. But I think there is a problem with the concept of pre-marital sex that flows from the concept of marriage as a permanent union: even in the committed co-hab situation, there is this concept of “relationship on a trial basis.” You can always leave if something doesn’t work out. Even when you believe your commitment to the other is just as strong as marriage, there’s an underlying “fault line” in the foundation. I recall a time on the old AOL board when this was the subject of debate. One of the “regs” who was co-habbing with her boyfriend made a passioned argument that her relationship was of the same cloth as my marriage. 6 months later, she had moved out. I won’t be so callous as to make a sweeping judgment, but I think this is endemic in our society’s attitude towards sex and marriage. “I can always change my mind.” And, its much easier to part ways with a co-hab than get a divorce, although, today, its pretty easy to get a divorce too. As for the argument that you need to “practice” in order to have it right for that “special girl” you’ll eventually partner with (the “what if the locket won’t clasp” joke from above), I think that’s rubbish. My wife and I both had never had sex with anyone prior to our wedding night. But we cared enough about meeting each other’s needs to learn about sex together. As Sanibel said, you simply have to learn to please your partner. The eternal principle of marriage (which applies whether one believes in it or not) is the two become one. After 17 years, our sex life couldn’t be better. The fact that the “skill” developed in that relationship was devoted only to my wife and the shared fulfillment in each other makes that all the more special to each other. And I daresay we have that because of a commitment to each other that was irrevocable. The concept of leaving the relationship is not a factor, both because of our own core values and because we don’t want anybody else. We have truly “become one flesh,” as Genesis puts it. Of course, sex is only a component of that. We are best friends in every way. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/37 "2000-07-17T19:15:26Z")
Well, since I can’t get married, it’s all sex before marriage to me, and I sure don’t have a problem with that! 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Saysha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Saysha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saysha)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/38 "2000-07-17T20:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PRISM02 \* > \*\*What did she say? \*\* Her answer to the OP was “No” ---
**Author:** ![Saysha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Saysha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saysha)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/39 "2000-07-17T21:16:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Major Feelgud \* > \*\*You have to have sex before marriage. If you don’t it’s like buying a car without test driving it. > > \*\*My thoughts exactly. > > Sex is part if any meaningful relationship. Any relationship will not be truly meaningful unless they have sex. It’s part of sharing each other. It’s not some dirty thing which religious types have made it up to be. It should not have anything to do with marriage which is an artificial human legal thing. > \*\* \*\*Exactly, again. I knew a couple that dated for 10 months or so, hastened marriage, and were “born again” Christians. And the were olderm late 20’s been around, felt good about waiting but talked a LOT about the wedding night. Poor Scott and Diane–they got married, got laid, got divorced. Seriously, it lasted just about as long as it took me to type it. Both of them sited (sp) the sexual aspect as one of their irreconcilable diffs-thye just didn’t _click_. It happens. Don’t know if I buy it, but that was their story and they stuck to it. Conversely, sexual compatibility does not always lend itself to long term relationships. For example, my ex and I had fabulous chemistry, had great times when we went out and partied–but stay home and kick it, watch TV? NoooooHo WaaaHay. That was a bummer. Got me a new one now. Like him, he likes me, got some kids, do it when we want to, but nobody sweats it. We did it plenty BEFORE we got married. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772/40 "2000-07-18T16:43:19Z")
I definitely think it’s a good idea. Of course sexual fulfillment is a part…heck, a large part…of every successful marriage. However, coming (no pun intended) into a marriage intended for long-term success requires a certain attitude. It requires an understanding of the nature of the partnership the two parties are building, their purpose in building that partnership, an appreciation of what each member brings to that partnership and a commitment to the partnership as a whole and to one’s partner before one’s personal satisfaction. It is my opinion (which, I will not lie, is based on my religious background, but which I believe to be true for practical reasons, not going-to-hell reasons) that sex prior to marriage undermines these factors. When one experiences a certain physical pleasure, he or she is inevitably influenced by the physical desire to experience it more. Once a couple is committed to marriage based on the principles outlined in the previous paragraph, such an influence is fine, because the partnership is based on an already-solid foundation. However, if this becomes a factor prior to the solidification of the commitment, it skews one’s perception of these other factors. This is not to say that this is a fatal flaw in _all_ such partnerships…far from it; even the studies most critical of sex before marriage have a significant percentage of the couples staying together. But it certainly is a genuine factor underlying the usual religious reasons for not engaging in sex prior to marriage. As for the problem of sexual incompatibility…I wouldn’t say it never happens, but it’s certainly not so common that I would say makes it advisable to “test-drive the car before buying it.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celibacy-until-marriage-a-good-idea/25772.md?page=3)