One of the biggest issues I see where family & vocation could collide is the sacramental nature of the Catholic religion. There are certain critical times of life where a person literally MUST have a priest there to hear a confession or give them last rites…not just for spiritual support, but for a necessary sacrament that only a priest can provide. Because of this, a priest must be on call for his parish 24/7. In larger parishes with more priests (or metro areas where there are a lot of parishes), this isn’t as much of an issue, but in places where there are not as many priests to be had, it could be a huge conflict with having a family.
Nope, it was ALL co-ed!
Maerzie
As I see it one of the problems with celibacy are that an individual who was convinced of the sinfulness of his homosexuality might be attracted to the priesthood in an attempt to sublimate those desires. Since there’s no reason to believe that homosexuals would be any worse priests than heterosexuals, that’s not really a problem I worry about. Do I have to state here that I don’t think there is anything sinful about homosexuality? Because I don’t. Not that I don’t state it, I mean I don’t think it.
Another problem is that the celibacy rule, by restricting your applicant pool, might make the selection process less stringent than it should be. That could result in pedophiles slipping through whatever psychological screening is used. Since I’m not sure if there even is a psychological screening that’s something I’m not too concerned about either, especially since nobody’s shown me that you can screen out pedophiles.
I guess I came a long way to say “Meh, their game, their rules.” If you asked me personally if priests should be allowed to marry I’d say yes, but I’d also say that they should all quit and get a real job, so I’m not the best one to ask.
Actually, the time demands of the church and flock are easier to cope with (not easy, by any means, but easier) because they are actual needs of the people and of the church body. And they are expected, although the reality often far outstrips the expectation. Harder to bear is the different standard to which clergy and their families are held. Woeful is the priest’s wife who inherits fine china, silver, or antiques from her family. While the fashion choices of other women may be whispered about over coffee, the priest’s wife is publicly chastized for fashion faux pas that “reflect badly on the congregation.” And God help you if you ever run into rough marital seas – getting counseling is not seen as a positive step but as a refutation of all that is holy. It is petty, venal and stupid, but it happens in every church with married clergy. It’s hard on any marriage and it causes the children grief from beginning to end. It takes very special people to minister lovingly to unappreciative communicants and keep one’s family from shattering.
Actually, during my 40+ years of nursing, the Lutheran ministers (who are usually married) had to come to the hospitals and the homes (during my Home Health nursing years) just as often as the Catholic priests, and the “voluntary”, social visits were MUCH more frequent by the Lutheran ministers also. The Catholic priests I have known during my 67 year life have been anything BUT as restrictive as they are purported to be. Actually, many of their lives are extremely selfish instead of the life they **claim ** keeps them from abolishing the celibacy requirement. They frequently have the time to do more socialization and fun activities than I did when I had to work full time AND be on call (bein “on call” 24/7 is required of MANY professions, not only Catholic priests), but I never had to be celibate in order to perform my duties. The reasons given for mandatory celibacy are just another one of the deceptions Catholics are supposed to be too indoctrinated to decipher (and many Catholics ARE). And, yes, I know that the eastern Church has many married priests (most of whom were married already when they were ordained), but my experience is here in the western world.
I maintain, as I’ve said earlier, that the Church continues and began the celibacy requirement purely as a way to build up its riches because wives and children cost LOTS of money. And yes, just as in any life, the spouse chosen must be agreeable to the way of life he/she has chosen to join. However, with all the current scandals and money drains on that unimagineable wealth (which can pay millions to only ONE diocese for the scandal cover-ups), this sinful greed will have to be re-evaluated for the facts instead of the delusions.
Maerzie
I’m not Catholic but I grew up in an area where if you weren’t Catholic, you didn’t exist. Anyway, I am all for celibacy to be optional for a priest. Why not? I think a priest who’s married has a better view on married life for when his parishoners come to him for advice and so on, and also when folks who are to be married come in for premarital counseling.
If you feel you can do your job as a priest if you’re celibate, more power to you. If not, then why should you be unable to be one if you’re married but still feel that you’re called to be a priest?
And, by the way, my “on call” involved carrying a beeper, not just a phone number answered by a machine, where if there is no other answer, “Tough luck!” I have had to call a very “creative” list (limited only by my memory) of telephone numbers to find THE priest or even ANY priest in times of need and/or when I was called to the deathbed of a patient at 2 o’clock in the morning. And actually, the nurses usually TRIED to be considerate of these “overworked” priests by foreseeing these imminent deaths so they would not have to be called and inconvenienced in the middle of the night like the nurse must be. No, it is past time for the facade of all these supposedly required “burdensome activities” to be uncovered.
Because you would have already been called to be a married person. They are separate and equal vocations and different calls.
I guess I don’t get that. Someone is attracted to men and wants to sublimiate this so they join an order made up of single men? But yes, being gay does make the married life an unavailable vocation.
The vocation process is a very long and in-depth one, and quite selective, and yes there is psychological screening. I would imagine the issue would be more about someone in denial about being pedophile rather than purposely “slipping through” a decade-long process just to have access to little boys.
I don’t get this. Are you thinking that the Church would have to subsidize the entire family if they allowed married priests? Why wouldn’t they pay the salary of the priest and have the spouse work elsewhere as other married clergy families do? The Catholic Church is more miserly than other denominations which do subsidize families??
I guess you will just think of me as another indoctrinated Catholic person who doesn’t question the organization, but it’s hard to debate your other points since there is a clear bias there.
This is anecdotal evidence, based on what you perceived, and frankly, I don’t believe that your characterization of the priests you know is unbiased and accurate…it certainly doesn’t describe those that I know. I’m sure it’s true that the Lutheran ministers were as devoted to their flock as any Catholic priest…but I maintain that their jobs are slightly different.
I should have said 24/7/365. I’m sure your job as a nurse didn’t require that of you for literally your entire working years.
I highly doubt most Catholics are as stupid as you seem to believe.
You can maintain that opinion all you want, but it is, in fact, only your opinion. If you have some evidence to back it all up, I’d love to hear it.
That’s exactly where this theory falls apart…the Church doesn’t have to change the pay scale in order to allow married clergy. I don’t recall my boss giving me a raise just because I had a couple of kids.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am wondering, Sarahfeena if you ever have an original thought to post or if your position is only as a non-thinking, indoctrinated critic? There are times and situations in our lives when we MUST question and THINK. Critical Thinking is an excellent course available to all at most college campuses across the nation for people who always just accept the programming they have had.
As to the difference in the job descriptions and the demand on personal time between Catholic priests and Lutheran ministers my view is biased on my experiences in an average parish and by what I actually saw occurring in my real life when such clerics were needed. Perhaps you have never called your parish and gotten no one, even after repeated calls?
In response to your 24/7/365 clarification, please name me ONE priest who never has relief from other parishes or diocesan retired priests during the 365? An impossiblity. You are speaking as if ALL of them make this enormous sacrifice, when it is no more common (maybe less so) than for any other on call profession. Yes, on call status is relieved some days for all other professions also, just as it is for the priests.
Who are these “most Catholics”?? In your area? In your parish? In your own social group? Did you take a poll? See, I know how to be critical too, but I am not so cowardly and indoctrinated that I’m afraid to have a personal thought to publish and dissect.
And finally, as YOUR opinion is only YOUR opinion, so also, of course, is MY opinion MY opinion. Who else’s could it possibly be? Or, are you demonstrating the depth of your criticisms?
How very wonderful it would be if ANY of the criticisms would be “constructive” or “informative” instead of all the “better than thou” indoctrinated responses requiring no thought.
Like gigi and others, I’m somewhat confused by this point.
Just for the sake of argument, I’ll assume that the celibacy requirements of the Catholic Church had their origin in a scheme to accumulate wealth. How exactly does that work anyway? As far as I can tell from your posts thus far, the process of making money for the church consists of these steps:[ol][li]Impose celibacy on clergy.[]…[]Profit.[/ol]So, can you describe “step 2” in more detail? It doesn’t sound like much-- but hey, step 2 might be really compelling if only you’d explain it.[/li]
Somewhat less facetiously… a point of clarification:
When you say “building up riches” do you mean to imply that a celibate priest somehow generates wealth or, rather, that a celibate priest simply wastes less wealth than a non-celibate** one? If you are driving at the former, perhaps you’ve a point. Naturally, that point demands yet more explanation. Otherwise, I honestly don’t see how “losing less money” is a valid system of building wealth. If you choose to throw a dime down a storm drain instead of a quarter, you can’t claim that you “made fifteen cents”… or can you?
** Does “celibate” have an antonym?
But this is Great Debates, where opinions have to be backed up with something. You’ve taken your opinion about something you’ve decided is unnatural and harmful and made it the subject of a debate. Now back it up.
I’m a faithful Catholic but I’m not blind. I don’t know a lot of people but I know of one priest who was having an affair with a married woman. Another one made a pass at my Mom. Do I sweep that under the rug? No, they are humans who messed up. Do I take those examples and apply them to all priests and the Catholic Church? No. Just like I don’t take the stories of non-priest molesters I know of and assume everyone is a molester.
And I don’t take a handful of stories and my own opinion and claim there is a factual conclusion to draw from it.
Married.
Ba-dum.
While I was clearly being a smart-alec, I was not making it up. From Merriam-Webster:
From what I understand of the historical argument, presumably a priest would turn over his family property to the Church rather than passing it on to descendants??
Not sure how that would play out these days.
I have seen discussions about this that went further. Fathers wanted to pass church jobs on to their sons. Basically priests would treat church property as there own. Maerzie is not the first person to put forth the idea that celibacy was used by the Church to help consolidate power.
Maerzie, if you want your contention to be taken seriously, you really must cite a scholarly work, a book or magazine article, a web site (with hot link) – hell, even the History Channel. A couple of months ago I offered as support for an opinion a trend that I personally witnessed over a period of 20 years working in newspaper newsrooms – got roundly chastized for not supporting my “opinion.” Are you getting the picture here?