# Celtic Ireland - it seems there's been a little mistake **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 5, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198 "2004-09-05T08:00:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/1 "2004-09-05T08:00:55Z")
According to [this article](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1247765,00.html), Ireland (and the other “Celtic” nations) aren’t really Celtic at all. Quasi-Celt Dopers, you can post your identity crisis thoughts here 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/2 "2004-09-05T08:17:42Z")
AFAIK, this theory isn’t as new as the article would make us believe (although the DNA evidence obviously is). I’ve long heard claims that the idea of a _single_ ‘Celtic people’ is essentially a Victorian myth. I also had a conversation some years ago with an archaeologist on Inishmore, about the fort at Dun Aengus - her basic comments were that “we don’t know who built it, or who they were defending themselves against, but none of them were Celts”. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/3 "2004-09-05T08:19:58Z")
So are you 😃 because the link you posted requires a memebership? Not funny…I don’t suppose you’ve got another cite handy does ya? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/4 "2004-09-05T08:22:10Z")
No paid membership needed for me to see it 😕 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/5 "2004-09-05T08:22:12Z")
Funny, I don’t think I have a membership at that site. Try [www.bugmenot.com](http://www.bugmenot.com) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/6 "2004-09-05T08:24:39Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’ve long heard claims that the idea of a _single_ ‘Celtic people’ is essentially a Victorian myth. I’ve heard that too, although the way it was framed was always that there was so much intermixing that the idea of any kind of pure Celticness was absurd. I hadn’t heard before that there were doubts the Celts were here at all. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/7 "2004-09-05T11:39:02Z")
With a sample size of 200, I’d suggest that the study isn’t really conclusive, but more likely a ‘taster’ to get funding for more research. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/8 "2004-09-05T12:03:07Z")
[On a related note…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273707%22%5B/url) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/9 "2004-09-05T12:04:49Z")
:rolleyes: Why do I try to post before coffee? [On a related note…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273707) ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/10 "2004-09-05T12:15:36Z")
I can’t see the article either and your suggestion doesn’t work **ruadh**. You also can’t register for free…it requires actual money! Do you guys already subscribe to _The Times_? That might be why it is accesible to you. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/11 "2004-09-05T12:17:27Z")
Since the link requires registration, could the OP give a short quote, or sum up the content of the article? If it’s related to some evidences that there isn’t anything like a “celtic race”, it’s no surprise. Obviously, the celts didn’t invade western europe, kill off everybody living there and them reproduced like rabbits to repopulate the continent with “ppure breed” celts (that’s assuming that the celts would have been a single genetically related population at the first place). The celts were a culture, not a race. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/12 "2004-09-05T12:20:39Z")
Times doesn’t require registration for folks in GB/Ireland. The rest of us have to. It just goes by IP range, though. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/13 "2004-09-05T12:42:15Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Times doesn’t require registration for folks in GB/Ireland. The rest of us have to. It just goes by IP range, though. Huh? They ask me to pay for registration… ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/14 "2004-09-05T12:47:17Z")
Ah… no wonder. I _knew_ I never reigstered there (and I certainly wouldn’t have paid to do so!) Well, here’s as much from the article as I think I can get away with posting here: > [@](#): > > THE long-held belief that Ireland’s population is descended from the Celts has been disproved by geneticists, who have concluded that they never invaded Ireland. > > The research at Trinity College Dublin (TCD) into the origins of Ireland’s population found no substantial evidence of the Celts in Irish DNA, and concludes they never settled here en masse. > … > Part of the project’s brief was to “discover whether there was a large incursion by Celtic people about 2,500 years ago” as was widely believed. After comparing a variety of genetic traits in Irish people with those of thousands of European and Near Eastern inhabitants, the scientists at TCD say there was not. > … > “The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age,” said [Brian] McEvoy [one of the study’s authors]. “They seem to have come up along the coast through western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts. “We have a very old genetic legacy.” ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/15 "2004-09-05T13:19:35Z")
So what you’re saying is that they’ve got some scientific evidence that may support the “myth” of Gadelas and the Milesians. They claim there’s no evidence of Western European genetics BUT what about Grecian, Hebrew, or possible Egyptian. I assume the mythology of Goedhal Glas and his descendants migration to Ireland is common knowledge in parts of the UK and especially Ireland. They did supposedly make their way to Ireland after an extended stop in Spain. Where they brought their family in large numbers to Ireland and were followed later by more Gadelians into Ireland and Scotland. How much fact or fiction is anyone’s guess. The Gaels …Galeweians (sp?) known for their clans inhabitaing southwest Scotland are supposedly direct descendants of the sons of Gadelas. Much modern technology (at the time) was brought to the islands there. Making it possible for these immigrants to soon dominate the native inhabitants. I read a Roman account of their attempt to conquer the region but was met with similar military tactics and technology. The walls weren’t built to keep the Romans out but to keep the “Celts” (their terminolgy) at bay. Since I’m writing this from memory, there may be some discrepancies. But it is a mixture of myth, folklore and bits of history. However, I’ve been studying this for some time and a lot of it makes sense. To me anyway. Well, except maybe for the reason why there weren’t any snakes in Ireland. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/16 "2004-09-05T13:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > They claim there’s no evidence of Western European genetics BUT what about Grecian, Hebrew, or possible Egyptian. In the other thread (linked above), **Polycarp** said: [quote] Like nearly everybody else European, the Celts seem to have originated in Eastern Europe, more or less in the Ukraine (geographically, not necessarily in the specific modern nation), and to have migrated west. From **ruahd** ’s post: > [@](#): > > The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age From **Polycarp** ’s post (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Worth noting is that… there are strong Celtic admixtures in the genetics and linguistics of the French, **Spanish** , etc… > [@](#): > > Obviously, the celts didn’t invade western europe In about 450 BCE barbarians invaded Northern Italy through Alpine passes. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/17 "2004-09-05T13:38:52Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > They claim there’s no evidence of Western European genetics BUT what about Grecian, Hebrew, or possible Egyptian. Part of the article which I didn’t post says that the strongest matches in the Irish DNA sequences were with Britain (particularly Scotland) and the Spanish Pyrenees, but there were also some with Scandinavia and Northern Africa. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/18 "2004-09-05T14:26:17Z")
Egypt? cool that goes to play into the myth then doesn’t it. Aside from the mythology I love genealogy and history. My last name is Scots/Irish and my family has a long history in Ireland and Scotland. So I have spent quite a bit of time, money, and effort in this. An old man and good friend of mine got me started years ago. He had been to the UK many times over the years and was really into history. While in Wales he ran across a man with what he said were really old books. Dating back to the 13th or 14th century and cited even older monastery works as sources… It related the tale of Gadelas having been Grecian born into parts of Albania (this is from memory I’m not gonna go digging through my stacks) it goes on later to tell that he was a captain of a ship that he sailed for Egypt. He gained the favor of the Pharoah and married one of his daughters. yadda yadda—ultimately he and she wound up in Spain because of war in the Mediterranean. Where they started a family and after some generations they wound up in Ireland. I could go into the long version of how Gadelas knew of Ireland and a lot of other interesting aspects to the myth/legend/folklore but more than likely y’all already know this stuff. I believe most folklore has a basis in fact. How much or little is hard to say. I like to think life is more interesting than it probably is sometimes. Call me a romantic. But in the face of proof, well romance is usually in the mind anyway. til then…Spanish and Egyptian DNA in Ireland’s ancient inhabitants. yeah that’s cool to me, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/19 "2004-09-05T14:39:36Z")
Who are the authors of the report in the Times? Are either the geneticists or the redactors named? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198/20 "2004-09-05T15:03:41Z")
The geneticists are Dr Dan Bradley, a Lecturer at Trinity, and Brian McEvoy, a PhD student. The study was funded by the Irish Government as part of the “Genetic History of Ireland” programme. The Times reporter’s name is Jan Battles. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celtic-ireland-it-seems-theres-been-a-little-mistake/263198.md?page=2)