# Celts in New England before 1600's **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777 "2015-08-02T03:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/21 "2015-08-03T14:38:50Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > The medieval accounts of St Brendan’s voyage are vague enough that they might or might not refer to an actual trip across the Atlantic. They were interesting enough that an adventurer by the name of Tim Severin set out to [replicate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Severin#The_Brendan_Voyage_.281976.E2.80.931977.29) the journey, in as faithful a copy of a sixth century curragh as modern ingenuity could construct. > > His account of the boat’s building and sailing (the building itself was quite an epic task) is fascinating, and I recommend it to anyone who’s into that kind of thing. They made it to Newfoundland, taking over a year on the journey. > > So the trip is at least _possible_ using the kind of technology the Celts had. That does not, of course, prove that it was made. It seems very unlikely that enough people for a whole viable Celtic colony would have been able or motivated to travel that distance. But a small group who influenced the local culture … maybe? I’ll grant it’s possible. But that’s a long way from Proven, or even Likely. And Godwin was imagining the transportation of an entire self-supporting colony of monks, which seems far removed from Brendan’s little curraugh. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/22 "2015-08-03T14:40:51Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > So the trip is at least _possible_ using the kind of technology the Celts had. That does not, of course, prove that it was made. It seems very unlikely that enough people for a whole viable Celtic colony would have been able or motivated to travel that distance. But a small group who influenced the local culture … maybe? A lot of things are possible but there is no conclusive evidence that Europeans made it to the North American mainland before Columbus got here. Maybe it happened, but investigation of so many sites just turns out the same way over and over again, investigation shows the site is more recent than was believed, or it was made by Native Americans, or it doesn’t exist at all. A confirmation of Celts or Norse landing somewhere on the mainland wouldn’t be enormously surprising because it’s not impossible, but such confirmation hasn’t happened yet. Also, dating some of these artifacts is difficult to impossible. Europeans trampled all over the same areas that Native Americas lived in, moved and altered stone structures, and built them on top of old campsites. Old charcoal found in the ground may have been left by Native Americans long before a European built a stone cairn, or been left by Europeans near some stone structure built by locals much earlier. The evidence needed would be something like iron tools or runes that could actually be dated. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/23 "2015-08-03T14:49:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > A lot of things are possible but there is no conclusive evidence that Europeans made it to the North American mainland before Columbus got here. Maybe it happened, but investigation of so many sites just turns out the same way over and over again, investigation shows the site is more recent than was believed, or it was made by Native Americans, or it doesn’t exist at all. A confirmation of Celts or Norse landing somewhere on the mainland wouldn’t be enormously surprising because it’s not impossible, but such confirmation hasn’t happened yet. It’s worth pointing out that there IS ample evidence of Norse habitation at L’Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland. No one doubts it any more: > **[L'Anse aux Meadows](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows)** > > L'Anse aux Meadows (lit. 'Meadows Cove') is an archaeological site, first excavated in the 1960s, of a Norse settlement dating to approximately 1,000 years ago. The site is located on the northernmost tip of the island of Newfoundland in the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador near St. Anthony. > With carbon dating estimates between 990 – 1050 CE (mean date 1014) and tree-ring dating of 1021, L'Anse aux Meadows is the only undisputed site of pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact of Eur... It’s arguably not on the “mainland”, since Newfoundland is a largish island, but that seems like a quibble. > [@](#): > > Also, dating some of these artifacts is difficult to impossible. Europeans trampled all over the same areas that Native Americas lived in, moved and altered stone structures, and built them on top of old campsites. Old charcoal found in the ground may have been left by Native Americans long before a European built a stone cairn, or been left by Europeans near some stone structure built by locals much earlier. The evidence needed would be something like iron tools or runes that could actually be dated. Agree, although I don’t know how you could reliably date iron tools or runes. There have, in fact, been arguments about the dates of runes found in the New World. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/24 "2015-08-03T14:53:42Z")
In addition (although more questionable): > [@](#): > > **Other possible Norse finds** > > The Vinland map, alleged to be pre-Columbian. It is classified as a possible forgery > Numerous artifacts that some attribute to the Norse Greenlanders have been found in Canada, particularly on Baffin Island and in northern Labrador. A late-11th-century Norwegian penny, with a hole for stringing on a necklace, has also been found in Maine. There is dispute about the authenticity of this small penny, and its discovery by an amateur archaeologist in 1957 has become controversial; questions have been raised whether it was planted as a hoax.[30] > > Other claimed Norse artifacts in the area south of the St. Lawrence include a growing number of stones inscribed with runic letters. The Kensington Runestone was found in Minnesota, but is generally considered a hoax. The authenticity of the Spirit Pond runestones, recovered in Phippsburg, Maine, is also questioned. Other examples are the Heavener Runestone, the Shawnee Runestone, and the Vérendrye Runestone. The age and origin of these stones is debated, and so far none has been firmly dated or associated with clear evidence of a medieval Norse presence.[31] In general, script in the runic alphabet does not in itself guarantee a Viking age or medieval connection, as Dalecarlian runes have been suggested to have been used until the 20th century. > **[Vinland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland)** > > Vinland, Vineland, or Winland (Old Norse: Vínland hit góða, lit. 'Vinland the Good') was an area of coastal North America explored by Vikings. Leif Eriksson landed there around 1000 AD, nearly five centuries before the voyages of Christopher Columbus and John Cabot. The name appears in the Vinland Sagas, and describes Newfoundland and the Gulf of Saint Lawrence as far as northeastern New Brunswick. Much of the geographical content of the sagas corresponds to present-day knowledge of t In 1960, ar... and: > [@](#): > > Evidence of Viking Outpost Found in Canada > > Sharpeners may be smoking guns in quest for New World’s second Viking site. > While digging in the ruins of a centuries-old building on Baffin Island (map), far above the Arctic Circle, a team led by Sutherland, adjunct professor of archaeology at Memorial University in Newfoundland and a research fellow at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland, found some very intriguing whetstones. Wear grooves in the blade-sharpening tools bear traces of copper alloys such as bronze—materials known to have been made by Viking metalsmiths but unknown among the Arctic’s native inhabitants. > Taken together with her earlier discoveries, Sutherland’s new findings further strengthen the case for a Viking camp on Baffin Island. “While her evidence was compelling before, I find it convincing now,” said James Tuck, professor emeritus of archaeology, also at Memorial University. > **[National Geographic](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/)** > > Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/25 "2015-08-03T14:59:16Z")
Missed the edit window: ETA:[Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Stonehenge)has some results of investigation showing the construction of America’s Stonehenge was quite old. It still can’t rule out some Europeans making their way across the Atlantic somehow to do the construction, but once again, there’s no evidence that was the case, and lacking such evidence the reasonable conclusion is that it was built by Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/26 "2015-08-03T15:00:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s arguably not on the “mainland”, since Newfoundland is a largish island, but that seems like a quibble. Yeah, just lacking a better term I used mainland. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/27 "2015-08-03T16:10:57Z")
Italians came to Niles, Ill and built a leaning tower there before Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/28 "2015-08-03T16:16:27Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Italians came to Niles, Ill and built a leaning tower there before Columbus. Before Columbus made it to Ohio you mean. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/29 "2015-08-03T16:49:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Before Columbus made it to Ohio you mean. Sure – you’ve never heard of Columbus, Ohio? They even have a replica of his ship there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/30 "2015-08-03T18:16:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s worth pointing out that there IS ample evidence of Norse habitation at L’Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland. No one doubts it any more: > > [L'Anse aux Meadows - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows) > > It’s arguably not on the “mainland”, since Newfoundland is a largish island, but that seems like a quibble. > > Agree, although I don’t know how you could reliably date iron tools or runes. There have, in fact, been arguments about the dates of runes found in the New World. And, many experts say that L’Anse Aux Meadows is not Vinland, that it was a smaller settlement, thus there is a quite possibly a larger settlement somewhere south- possibly under water. ☹ I rate the Kensington Runestone as a “maybe”. There’s no classic marks of a hoax, like the Cardiff Giant, Piltdown man, etc. It was slammed as a obvious hoax by Archaeologists and Historians pre 1960 as pretty much they all derided any Pre-Colombian “discovery”. Now sure, there are linguistic and rune-stylistic issues, but note that no two experts agree on what the issue is, and they keep going back and forth. Honestly, from any writing sample this small, arguing stylistic or linguistic issues is pretty bogus, as who knows the background of the one guy who wrote it? I mean, (making an example up) today you could say that only Germans use the little cross on a 7, but I personally know two guys who write like that, and only one of them speaks German. Of course for six decades every Archaeologist and Historian _knew_ it had to be a hoax. It is amazing the 180 by Archaeologists and Historians around 1960 as before that, pretty much anything at all other than Columbus was laughed off as “bunkum” and pseudoscience. I am not saying the Kensington Runestone is legit, but it more a “maybe” than many will admit. So, I have grave doubts of any Celtic “colony” or exploring expedition that made it to America and back (Brendan \*may \*be _based_ on a real story but yes, it’s mostly allegory as **Dr. Drake** sez.). But Norman, Breton, Irish, and Basque fishermen may have discovered the Grand Banks before 1492, and it’s certainly not impossible for a fishing boat to have wintered in America, perhaps to dry their catch. In fact, it’s more likely than not. It was common by 1539. But no year-round “settlements” are likely. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/31 "2015-08-03T18:27:57Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The local native Americans never built stone structures of any kind. Charcoal excavated from the base of the rocks (at the center) was dated to 1000 BC. There are also “standing stones” simple columns throughout New England-who raised them is anybodie’s guess. Sure, I guess Aliens built these:😛 > **[Ancient America: Stone Architecture | Native American Netroots](http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/630)** > > ( – promoted by navajo) By the time the first Europeans were beginning to explore and establish colonies in the Americas, Europeans considered stone ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/32 "2015-08-03T18:32:14Z")
There are also some odd things like Dighton Rock, which is not a hoax, but is of unknown origin. Certainly there are some letters, and not recent. Perhaps the Cortereal expedition? Others could be Native. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/33 "2015-08-03T19:45:06Z")
Another stone structure that is presumably Native American is a 885’ stone wall at [Fort Mountain State Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Mountain_State_Park#Ancient_wall) in Georgia. The problem is that if you start assigning the construction of _all_ of these ruins to some pre-Columbian European group, you’d soon realize that the Americas had to have an amazing number of Europeans running all over it for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/34 "2015-08-03T20:32:18Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > … > If you have a culture that believes in the Otherworld, a mysterious parallel universe where the supernatural beings lives that is not bound by regular geography, and which sometimes lies on an island to the west, it’s not all that hard to imagine sailing to that land. > > Using Brendan’s journey as evidence for Irish presence in the Americas is like using sci-fi for evidence of American presence on Mars. There is plenty of precedent for such an island in Celtic myth, one of the most notable being the island of Avalon in Arthurian lore. In various versions, Arthur is mortally wounded in battle and is taken to the beach, where his sister is waiting with a barge to take him to Avalon to be healed and eventually return someday. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/35 "2015-08-03T20:43:47Z")
The book isn’t directly about the subject at hand, but Charles Mann’s “1491” describes not just a few but many dozens of complex cultures throughout the Americas, some of which were extant when Europeans showed up, others of which had disappeared long before. On topic, perhaps the recent locals didn’t put the stones there, but an older group did. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/36 "2015-08-03T20:54:25Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The local native Americans never built stone structures of any kind. Charcoal excavated from the base of the rocks (at the center) was dated to 1000 BC. There are also “standing stones” simple columns throughout New England-who raised them is anybodie’s guess. There are several groups of local Native Americans who beg to differ. [http://nolumbekaproject.blogspot.com/p/to-preserve-that-which-is-sacred-by.html](http://nolumbekaproject.blogspot.com/p/to-preserve-that-which-is-sacred-by.html) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/37 "2015-08-03T21:57:56Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > The book isn’t directly about the subject at hand, but Charles Mann’s “1491” describes not just a few but many dozens of complex cultures throughout the Americas, some of which were extant when Europeans showed up, others of which had disappeared long before. This may be better suited for starting a different thread, but I very recently flipped through this book at the library, and got a strong Velikovsky/von Daniken vibe from it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/38 "2015-08-03T22:45:49Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > This may be better suited for starting a different thread, but I very recently flipped through this book at the library, and got a strong Velikovsky/von Daniken vibe from it. Not quite. He starts with his feet solidly based on facts and the works of other historians, but then when he smarts off on his own extrapolations, he gets kinda carried away. One of his main points is that there were a lot more Natives here before Columbus than we thought, which is true if by “than we thought” you are thinking rather old & dated history. He then takes the very highest possible estimates and extrapolations. As other historians have noted about this trend- wiki "_Historian David Henige has argued that many population figures are the result of arbitrary formulas selectively applied to numbers from unreliable historical sources. He believes this is a weakness unrecognized by several contributors to the field, and insists there is not sufficient evidence to produce population numbers that have any real meaning. He characterizes the modern trend of high estimates as “pseudo-scientific number-crunching.” Henige does not advocate a low population estimate, but argues that the scanty and unreliable nature of the evidence renders broad estimates inevitably suspect, saying “high counters” (as he calls them) have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources"_ ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/39 "2015-08-03T23:53:33Z")
Well, if the worst thing about Mann’s book is that he over-enthusiastically endorses a high estimate for native population pre-contact, that’s not an irredeemable sin. The bulk of the book is reportage based on the work of actual historians and archaeologists. ---
**Author:** ![gloaming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@gloaming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gloaming)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/celts-in-new-england-before-1600s/726777/40 "2015-08-04T00:11:27Z")
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