# Censorship **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199 "2005-09-30T14:41:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/1 "2005-09-30T14:41:15Z")
In a Pit thread about a Conservative talk show host who made a rather offensive remark, someone posted that a member of Congress circulated a petition to call for the programme’s cancellation. The executive director of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights also demanded that the show be canceled. The First Amendment guarantees our right of free expression. Specifically, ‘ **Congress shall make no law** … abridging the freedom of speech…’ So that’s not the issue. _Citizens_ and groups have no such restriction. They may petition broadcasters to cancel shows they find offensive or simply do not like, to fire individuals, etc. These people and groups are exercising their Freedom of Speech to denounce those they find offensive. I wonder if they should though. I hate hearing people who have a public forum espousing hateful ideas. I’d rather not hear them. I think they can be dangerous to society if large numbes of people adopt these ideas. But there’s an old saying: ‘Give him enough rope and he’ll hang himself.’ I just watched _12 Angey Men_ again recently. One character goes off on an racist rant, prompting even those members of the jury who agree with him that the defendant is guilty to stand from the table and turn their backs on him. I think of the Ku Klux Klan. While unfortunately there are still people who believe their tripe, I think most people see them as a bunch of nutters. The more they talk, the more ridicule they open themselves up to. So I wonder: Is it better to ‘shut down’ those people who’s views are dangerous to society? Or to let them make such fools of themselves that even their most ardent supporters have to stop and say, ‘Hey, wait a minute…’? Again, I’m _not_ talking about violating the First Amendment. I’m talking about non-judicial censorship by our fellow citizens expressing their own views. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/2 "2005-09-30T14:52:27Z")
I personally hate those attempts to shut people up, like when pressure groups scare off advertisers of a show they dislike. That crap is of course legal, but it’s completely counter to the idea of free speech. It would be like trying to win an argument in Great Debates against someone by getting their internet access shut off. And yes, I even hate it when they are targeting someone I personally dislike and disagree with. In fact, I bet more times than not I disagree with the target. But I disagree with “I don’t like it so nobody should see/hear it” even more (usually). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/3 "2005-09-30T15:04:44Z")
“The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honour you can bestow on him. It means that you recognize his superiority to yourself.” — Joseph Sobran ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/4 "2005-09-30T15:08:47Z")
From The American President: \*Everybody knows American isn’t easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it’s gonna put up a fight. It’s gonna say, “You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can’t just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest.” Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free. \* ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/5 "2005-09-30T15:19:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honour you can bestow on him. It means that you recognize his superiority to yourself.” — Joseph Sobran I agree in principle. But I find it impossible to believe that I’m _not_ superior to members of hate groups, bigots, etc. whether or not they are silenced. Which is not to say that I think they should be silenced. I _do_ wish they’d shut up and analyse their beliefs and have epiphanies that reveal to them that they’re wrong. But I’m not so sure they should be shut down. First, shutting them down will only give them ‘proof’ that they’re being ‘repressed’ by their enemies. Secondly, as the exchange of information becomes faster and more widespread, they may be hoist by their own petards. But there’s still the danger that their views may be adopted by others. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/6 "2005-09-30T16:46:45Z")
I recently had a very similar conversation with a co-worker regarding Banned Books Week (which is this week)… > [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > So I wonder: Is it better to ‘shut down’ those people who’s views are dangerous to society? Who decides who gets shut down? There is no objective definition of “dangerous to society.” > [@](#): > > But I find it impossible to believe that I’m _not_ superior to members of hate groups, bigots, etc. And _they_ find it impossible to believe that they are not superior to _you_. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/7 "2005-09-30T17:57:17Z")
Writing about hate speech, I believe it was Brandeis who wrote, _“Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”_ Let fools be fools, so we can all see. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/8 "2005-09-30T18:09:08Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > But there’s an old saying: ‘Give him enough rope and he’ll hang himself.’ He said something stupid. He had enough rope. Isn’t losing his show, should his employer’s decide that way, the hanging? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/9 "2005-09-30T20:13:23Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > And _they_ find it impossible to believe that they are not superior to _you_. I was waiting for that. 😉 > [@jsgoddess](#): > > He said something stupid. He had enough rope. Isn’t losing his show, should his employer’s decide that way, the hanging? I was speaking generally, not about him in particular. (Does anyone else, when seeing the title of that thread, want to shout ‘_Gordon Bennett!_’?) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/10 "2005-09-30T20:18:27Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > I was speaking generally, not about him in particular. Sure, but he makes a handy example. I’m saying doesn’t the long enough rope include the risk, for the speaker, that there will be repercussions for their statements? And isn’t losing a show, or a movie deal, or sales, just one of those risks? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/11 "2005-09-30T23:44:39Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/12 "2005-09-30T23:55:01Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Is it better to ‘shut down’ those people who’s views are dangerous to society? Or to let them make such fools of themselves that even their most ardent supporters have to stop and say, ‘Hey, wait a minute…’? Definitely the latter, without a doubt. The antidote for hateful (or stupid) speech is a well-reasoned rebuttal of your own. [People who resort to “Shut up!”](http://slate.msn.com/id/2087706/) do so because they don’t have a better response. Freedom of speech is useless if it’s limited to speech that you find tasteful. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/13 "2005-09-30T23:59:55Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I personally hate those attempts to shut people up, like when pressure groups scare off advertisers of a show they dislike. This is the key, though (whether good or bad). If it looks like the guy and his views are going to cost the company money, they’ll dump him and he’ll have to take his crap elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/14 "2005-10-01T06:02:43Z")
> [@](#): > > b]Revtim\*\*: I personally hate those attempts to shut people up, like when pressure groups scare off advertisers of a show they dislike. It’s annoying only when “they” do it – boycott Disney, for example. It’s politically astute when it’s for a good cause such as saving the whales, keeping a fake “news” documentary off the air waves, helping farm workers, etc. 😉 Seriously, I approve of this method because it too is an expression of freedom in the marketplace. Smaller voices can be heard when they organize. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/15 "2005-10-01T12:45:59Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > It’s annoying only when “they” do it – boycott Disney, for example. It’s politically astute when it’s for a good cause such as saving the whales, keeping a fake “news” documentary off the air waves, helping farm workers, etc. 😉 Well, I did explicitly say “And yes, I even hate it when they are targeting someone I personally dislike and disagree with”, you just chopped that part when you quoted me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/censorship/324199/16 "2005-10-01T12:59:06Z")
For me, it’s not an especially offensive tactic, although it’s certainly a tactic that can be used in a good or a bad fashion. If I’m trying to get Fox not to air a special on how the Moon Landing is a Hoax, that’s using the tactic for a good end. If I’m using it to try to cancel shows that reference masturbation, that’s using the tactic for a bad end. The tactic itself doesn’t hold much moral value: it’s simply a version of the boycott, which is morally neutral. Daniel