Census & AD 1

I guess I have two problems with taking Luke’s story literally. The first is that neither Judea or the Gallilleewasn’t part of Rome yet, while Herod the Great was alive. It was a client kingdom of Rome, but not under direct Roman administration. Censuses (Censii?) have two main purposes, either to aid in the collection of taxes, or to get an account of available men for military conscription. Those would be matters that Herod would deal with, and not Rome.

Also, it’s unlikely that the census takers would require people to go to the town of their ancestors for the census. That would require a pretty big migration, would be disruptive, and would be an open invitation for the Parthians to raid.

Thanks for reiterating what I said when noting Blomberg and Craig. I’m not sure what point you were attempting in the previous paragraph.

As scholars attempt to recreate the information of the past, they constantly dig up (some times literally) new information and try to cast that into a coherent framework with which other scholars must deal in order to present their attempts at reconstruction. The conservative Christian, liberal Christian, Jewish, and Skeptic scholars probing those times must all provide answers to the inferences and suggestions that others make. If a Chistian scholar publishes a clearly convincing point, no Skeptic can afford to ignore it. Conversely, no Christian scholar can afford to ignore the serious efforts of a Skeptic who has presented persuasive or convincing evidence that would threaten the Christian’s thesis. It is not a matter of “accepting” the other’s point but in being logically forced to answer it.

On the other hand, good scholarship is good scholarship. It might be possible for a Fundamentalist Christian or Skeptic to try to ignore each other’s works, (bad scholarship, but human). However, there is no reason why either would be ignored by all the possible factions in the scholarly community. When the only support comes from within any particular ideology and no other ideological group even bothers to offer criticism, that is a pretty clear indicator of polemics.

Any work that is no longer the subject of discussion has either established its point beyond doubt, or it has been thoroughly rebutted. Since scholars at this time do not agree with Ramsay’s speculations, but they no longer trouble themselves to rebut him, that is a fairly clear indication that his speculations have already been put to rest in the minds of all the scholarly community.

Ramsay’s opera (the object of my post) has not been addressed by any serious scholar in decades except as a reference point to a few historical notes that he established. This does not in any way denigrate his value for the work he did. I have found no one who accused him of shoddy work or glaring errors. However, the fact that genuine scholarship no longer cites him when debating the more controversial of his suggestions indicates rather clearly that his work has been superseded in that area.
Is is possible that Dex was too hasty in dismissing the possibility of an Augustan census prior to 1 C.E.? Sure. However, waving about Ramsay’s name and proclaiming that he “is considered one of the greatest archaelogists of our time” when he is merely acknowledged to have done some decent backgound work 100 years ago does not strike me as an effective debating point.

I repeat the main reason that I felt unable to present two “sides” to this argument.

Could there have been a census under Augustus? Sure. Could there Quirinius have served two terms? Sure.

Could a census have required people to travel to the city of their ancestral homes? No. Not a census under Augustus. Not a census under Quirinius. Not a census by anyone.

… Of course, I haven’t (yet) heard an argument that the census was miraculous, like the star over the manger.

You were the one who introduced Ramsay to give support to your position, by stating he is “considered one of the greatest archaelogists of our time.” It is not me who doesn’t consider him a “major figure in achaeology,” but the editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica - or at least they haven’t considered him such for many decades.

tomndebb, as usual, has addressed the issue very well, so I don’t feel there is much need to elaborate on his remarks.

I do agree that arguing with you - it can’t be characterized as a debate - about any of this is evidently a waste of time. And I can’t say that being considered “not very smart” by you is going to cost me any sleep.

I believe the ‘common or garden’ thing springs from certain things (such as songbirds) having two different common names, so a textbook, rather than saying: “Common Warbler, also known as Garden Warbler”, would merely say “Common, or garden Warbler”; of course, it wouldn’t always be these two words - it might be “Spotted or lesser lark”, but 'common or garden" seems to have been picked as a literary device.

NB: I just made up the bird names above; don’t anybody pick me up on them.

With all the other hoopla, I forgot to address:

Exiguus can mean small, little, lesser. The most frequent translation of Dionysius Exiguus is Dennis the Short. I have never seen a reference linking exiguus and fat.

Ramsay was sufficiently distinguished to make it into the Dictionary of National Biography, but its entry on him, written by J. G. C. Anderson in 1949, is not entirely uncritical. Here is what Anderson had to say about Ramsay’s work on the birth of Christ.

Given the conventions of the DNB, this was, of course, a polite way of saying that his work on the birth of Christ had remained controversial. It would seem that even in 1949 this was regarded as the weakest part of Ramsay’s contribution to the subject.

The full entry, uncredited and no doubt violating all copyright restrictions, can be found at: http://webminister.com/ramsay/rbi001.shtml

"Thanks for reiterating what I said when noting Blomberg and Craig. I’m not sure what point you were attempting in the previous paragraph.

… It is not a matter of ‘accepting’ the other’s point but in being logically forced to answer it."

JF>> OK. Maybe a bit of clarificaqtion is in order since this has gone many different directions by many different posts. What you have to comment on “fundamentalist” scholars (although no one has really clearly defined what they mean by this or who they think these people are) is not what was originally posted and what J.G. and I have tried to rebut. Eutychus and Opus 1 where clearly using the term “fundamentalist” disparagingly, as a way to justify disregarding the article written by Geisler, a noted biblical scholar, found on John Ankerberg’s web site.

However, your reference to “fundalemntalist” seems to have more to do with:

“Ramsay’s opera (the object of my post) has not been addressed by any serious scholar in decades except as a reference point to a few historical notes that he established.”

JF>>Regarding Ramsay, I haven’t read his work. But if someone is trying to make a name for themselves and do their own research and excavations, it isn’t likely that they would refer to his work except to buttress their position. Quite frankly I don’t find many scholars that are doing there own research that refer to other scholars in general. Not out of disrespect for anyone else, but to let their own work stand on its own two feet.

For instance, I am a lighting designer by trade. I have long since stopped refering to my education and mentors in my resume and biographies for programs because I have a body of work of my own that stands on its own.

So, Tom. Where are you not finding Ramsay mentioned that you think he should be that would indicate him a scholar of more note?

And what body of work that has been presented here are you refering to when you say:

"However, there is no reason why either would be ignored by all the possible factions in the scholarly community. When the only support comes from within any particular ideology and no other ideological group even bothers to offer criticism, that is a pretty clear indicator of polemics. "

(Straying a bit here from what Tom posted) As for whether or not W. Ramsay is noted in an encyclopedia, how many archaeologists are noted at all? So what if Ramsay is not listed. Few archaeologists are, fewer who specialize in one field of study, fewer still any who specialize in biblical scholarship. But since this is the Britanica that was mentioned, I wonder if Ramsay’s work is refered to on topics relating to what he studied.

"Is it possible that Dex was too hasty in dismissing the possibility of an Augustan census prior to 1 C.E.? Sure. "

JF>>I would have to say that is an understatement. And certainly makes his article suspect, as even what you have presented as valid research would indicate.

Overall, Tom, I think you have presented some very good points. Most of which I agree with. But you haven’t really clearly indicated where they are relavent to the discussions posted. You did clear up your point refering to Ramsay, however. Thanks.

"I repeat the main reason that I felt unable to present two “sides” to this argument.

Could there have been a census under Augustus? Sure. Could there Quirinius have served two terms? Sure.

Could a census have required people to travel to the city of their ancestral homes? No. Not a census under Augustus. Not a census under Quirinius. Not a census by anyone."

Why does your last point preclude presenting two sides on the previous points?

Anyway. There is an explanation about the Quirinius that negates the need for him to have served two terms. J.G. mentioned it as well. Glenn Miller has this on his website “Wittgenstien’s Net”:

“…the linguistic data of the last few decades indicates that Luke 2.1 should be translated ‘BEFORE the census of Quirinius’ instead of the customary ‘FIRST census of Quirinius’–see Nigel Turner, Grammatical Insights into the New Testament, T&T Clark: 1966, pp. 23,24 and Syntax, p. 32. This would ‘solve the problem’ without even requiring two terms of office for Q.”

And why is it that you do not believe “a census have required people to travel to the city of their ancestral homes? No. Not a census under Augustus. Not a census under Quirinius. Not a census by anyone.”

Augustus was notrious for his counting things, and if he rifled a few feathers along the way, all the better. Why is this so diificult for you to accept? Not that you are wrong, mind you, but I would like a bit more than “just because I say so” as an explanation.

Joe

Because it would have clogged the roads, disrupted trade and commerce, and the Parthians would have attacked and killed everyone.

I do not find Ramsay mentioned much in the various “Introductions” (where acknowledging sources is one of their primary goals). For example, in Kümmel’s Introduction to the NewTestament, there is a single reference to Ramsay’s work, The Church in the Roman Empire, (1894), in which he is held up as a strong proponent of the “province” theory (as opposed to the “territory” theory) regarding the audience of the letter to the Galatians, and his “province” theory is ultimately dismissed.
(In defense of Ramsay, Kümmel’s work does not address the issue of the census, at all, and so it would not have mentioned him in that context.)
Ramsay is mentioned again in the Jerome Biblical Commentary where his work as an archaeologist is praised, highly, for his contributions to the understanding of the geography of the second half of the first century.

I do not find Ramsay cited by Bovin, Barth, Conzelmann, Cadbury, Klostermann, O’Toole, Plummer, or others in discussions of Luke.
As opposed to one’s own curriculum vitae, it is the practice in scriptural mongraphs to mention every adherent and opponent to one’s own theories so as to avoid having some other scholar leap up and claim “Look, you’ve missed so-and-so, how do you answer them?”. It saves time (and demonstrates that you’ve done your research) if you mention them, up front.

Aside from that single mention in Kümmel, the only citations (I have seen) to Ramsay in the last 50 years appear to be those of the most fundamentalist wing of the Christian scholars. This indicates that only that group still accepts his work as continuing to contribute to ongoing discussions.

While his work provided a solid footing on which to build our understanding of Asia Minor, no one (outside the Fundamentalist community) appears to feel that his speculative work is actually worth quoting or rebutting.

I disagree. I suspect that they were referring to the fact that only the Fundamentalist community continues to look to Ramsay for answers. It is not that there is am inherent problem with Fundamentalist scholarship, but that when they, alone, cling to a theme, it suggests that that perspective has been marginalized.

Augustus wanted a census for purposes of taxation (and to discover where levies of troops could be raised). Having people wander around the empire to get back to ancestral homes would satisfy neither goal. (Sending a tax collector to Bethlehem in Judea to gather money from some Galilean is not a good way to find the money.) The several references I have seen to the claims by Augustus (in his Gesta) for his several censuses usually have him claiming to have taken the census of where people lived, so he left no suggestion that he had made such a strange request as to send people back to their ancestral homes. (Such a call would also seem to have gotten noticed in other places as there were a large number of Jews and Greeks living in Egypt (to say nothing of all the non-Romans living in Rome), yet Luke is the only place in ancient records where we have a story of a census requiring a report to the ancestral location.)

<< And why is it that you do not believe “a census have required people to travel to the city of their ancestral homes?..”>>
Tomndebb has already answered, and the Staff Report itself explains as well. It would have been a massive dislocation to require people to move around for tax purposes, and it would have been counter-productive. Every census from ancient times that we know about has the census-taker travelling around to record, not those being taxed.

Soooooo, Joseph was a census-taker as well as a carpenter.

In those days I presume most people lived near their home town anyway? The number of people who would have had to move could have been fairly small

So small that all the inns were full? And it wasn’t your home town, it was your ancestors’ hometown.