# Centrifuge discovery in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392 "2003-06-25T23:26:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/21 "2003-06-26T12:05:54Z")
My god! Who knows how many more rose bushes the Iraqis had? They may have been shipped to Syria or Libya, or sold to terrorists, or buried somewhere in the desert! ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/22 "2003-06-26T12:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > When did Dick Cheney say that Iraq had nukes? I don’t remember it. He said they could be as little as six months away IF they had the fissionables. **Apos** was quoting Bob Somersby’s [Daily Howler](http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh062503.shtml), which was discussing a piece in [The New Republic](http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030630&s=ackermanjudis063003&c=1). TNR was, I believe, referring to Cheney’s March 16, 2003 appearance on Meet the Press ([here’s the transcript](http://stacks.msnbc.com:80/news/886068.asp)), where Cheney says, in part > [@](#): > > We know that based on intelligence that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of [nuclear program] efforts. He’s had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe **he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.** [bolding mine] But was that what Cheney really believed? Later in the same transcript, he says > [@](#): > > We’re now faced with a situation, especially in the aftermath of 9/11, where the threat to the United States is increasing. And over time, given Saddam’s posture there, given the fact that he has a significant flow of cash as a result of the oil production of Iraq, **it’s only a matter of time until he acquires nuclear weapons**. [bolding mine, again] So did Cheney think Iraq had nuclear weapons on March 16, or not? He _did_ say it, but I suggest that he meant to say "we believe [Saddam Hussein] has, in fact, reconstituted _a nuclear weapons program_. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/23 "2003-06-26T12:14:03Z")
The CIA link I posted above is now broken. Alternative source: [http://www.nti.org/e\_research/official\_docs/cia/12-02CIA.pdf](http://www.nti.org/e_research/official_docs/cia/12-02CIA.pdf) (warning, PDF) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/24 "2003-06-26T13:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > [http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030626/API/306260622](http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030626/API/306260622) > Obeidi turned over a two-foot-tall stack of documents that includes detailed designs for centrifuges, intelligence officials said. Obeidi told intelligence officials the parts from his garden were **among the more difficult-to-produce components** of a centrifuge. > > Assembled, the components would not be useful in making much uranium. **Hundreds** of centrifuges are necessary to make enough to construct a nuclear weapon in such programs. Two points: 1. It’s obviously not a complete centrifuge, just a couple of components. 2. I don’t know whether “hundreds” or “a few tens of thousands” of centrifuges are required, but it _does_ look like the bar is being lowered again. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/25 "2003-06-26T13:26:48Z")
CNN–which seems to have become quite the lapdog for the Bushies in recent months–was reporting this morning that they also discovered hundreds of sacks of castor beans in an abandoned auto parts factory. Castor beans, they darkly informed us, can be used to make the deadly poisin ricin. Of course, castor beans are also used to make castor oil, which has all kinds of industrial uses: [http://newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/500-599/nb503.htm](http://newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/500-599/nb503.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/26 "2003-06-26T13:40:06Z")
Here’s the killer. Most of the details of Iraq’s centrifuge program became public knowledge during the 1994 trial in Germany of a number of people from H+H Metalform GmbH. Details here: [Iraq’s Acquisition of Gas Centrifuge Technology Part I: H+H Metalform – Funnel for the Iraqi Gas Centrifuge Program](http://www.exportcontrols.org/centpart1.html) > [@](#): > > In 1994, senior company officials were brought to trial and found guilty of violations of German export control laws, which prohibit the provision of conventional armaments and ballistic missiles. This section focuses on H+H’s assistance to Iraq’s gas centrifuge uranium enrichment program. It draws upon information revealed during these officials’ trials and interviews with key players. (For more information about the role of H+H’s assistance to Iraq’s armaments and ballistic missile programs, click here.) > > In aiding Iraq’s centrifuge program, H+H sold its own equipment, acted as an Iraqi procurement agent, and facilitated the transfer of specialized expertise to the Iraqi centrifuge program by German centrifuge experts and other companies. Despite learning in 1995 and 1996 the details of H+H’s assistance, German prosecutors did not file additional charges against any H+H personnel. > > H+H’s most significant contribution was giving Iraq access to German gas centrifuge experts. These experts changed the nature of Iraq’s centrifuge program and provided the wherewithal for it to succeed quickly. If Iraq had not invaded Kuwait in August 1990, it would have likely managed to build gas centrifuge facilities by the mid-1990s that would have produced enough weapon-grade uranium for several nuclear weapons a year. In parts II and III, full details are given of the bearings that were under development. Bottom line: Iraq never had a working centrifuge, all they got were a couple of bits. All of this was known prior to the discovery of these “bits”, and the accompanying plans, under a rose bush. This does not constitute any kind of proof that Iraq was hiding shit from the inspectors. The inspectors, it would be safe to assume, _already knew_ about this stuff. It’s public knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/27 "2003-06-26T14:17:26Z")
How come no one has mentioned that the same report says that the man has many other hidden components, which he has not revealed yet, and that the U.S. has found _millions_ of documents about Iraq’s wmd programs, including detailed instructions on how to pack and bury these materials and keep them in good shape. And they say that many of these documents are quite recent. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/28 "2003-06-26T14:20:51Z")
I remember when **Sam Stone** was talking about actual weapons than could be used to hit the UK/US. That’s why war was needed **now**. Now it “programs” that are the issue. Could these programs have been found without the war. I think they could have. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/29 "2003-06-26T14:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > This does not constitute any kind of proof that Iraq was hiding shit from the inspectors. The inspectors, it would be safe to assume, _already knew_ about this stuff. It’s public knowledge. \*\* With the minor caveat that hiding stuff under rose bushes does count as hiding shit from inspectors. They were supposed to destroy the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/30 "2003-06-26T14:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > How come no one has mentioned that the same report says that the man has many other hidden components, which he has not revealed yet, and that the U.S. has found _millions_ of documents about Iraq’s wmd programs, including detailed instructions on how to pack and bury these materials and keep them in good shape. And they say that many of these documents are quite recent. What was that you were saying about how this would be turned into a search for “documents,” **elucidator**? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/31 "2003-06-26T14:41:50Z")
I suppose you all have an innocent reason why it was necessary to hide this under a rose bush. How much more obvious does this all need to be? Saddam had no intention of abiding by the cease-fire disarmament agreements. He was waiting for the rest of the world to get tired of enforcing sanctions. Then he was going to dig up his centrifuges, get some fissionable material from the French, build some nukes, and start blackmailing. I can’t believe you people. Evidence of a program to build **effing NUKES** isn’t even enough. ---
**Author:** ![Boo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Boo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/32 "2003-06-26T14:49:13Z")
Would the inspectors ever have found this? They weren’t going around digging up scientist’s backyards. The only reason the scrientist is giving information is because saddam is gone. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/33 "2003-06-26T14:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*How come no one has mentioned that the same report says that the man has many other hidden components, which he has not revealed yet, and that the U.S. has found _millions_ of documents about Iraq’s wmd programs, including detailed instructions on how to pack and bury these materials and keep them in good shape. And they say that many of these documents are quite recent. \*\* I don’t know how bout you go 'head and mention 'em? Ideally, when you mention them you should provide a cite so that others can research the report. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/34 "2003-06-26T14:55:08Z")
**Shodan** please show me anyone saying that they shouldn’t have been stopped doing that. That’s what the UN were trying to do. The argument was WHY WAR NOW. Not WHY WAR AT ALL. If there was proof of this were was it? This has been found after the war. There was evidence of weaponised WMD we were told. Where are they? Where is that evidence. This isn’t about whether Saddam needed a good kicking, this isn’t about if his regime needed dealing with. This is about the lies that led to a war for reasons other than the ones given to the public. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/35 "2003-06-26T14:58:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > I can’t believe you people. Evidence of a program to build **effing NUKES** isn’t even enough. What effing program would that be Shodan? The one that was dismantled 12 years ago? The one that international sanctions have prevented from doing anything at all for the last 12 years? Nobody has ever disputed that Saddam wanted nukes. But your guys kept saying he was actively developing them, smuggling Bad Shit in from foreign countries, mere months away from blowing the crap out of New York City or some such bullshit. Where’s the effing evidence of anything remotely resembling _that_, Shodan? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/36 "2003-06-26T14:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Evidence of a program to build **effing NUKES** isn’t even enough. In what way do these bits and pieces provide evidence that Iraq had an **effing NUKE** program ? The use of gas centrifuges in civilian nuclear power programs is well known. Iraq had such a program, at least until the Israelis bombed the reactor. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/37 "2003-06-26T15:03:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > How much more obvious does this all need to be? > \*\* **Components** of a _single_ centrifuge when a “few tens of thousands” of complete centrifuges doesn’t seem to an obvious enough threat to justify the deaths of American soldiers to me. YMMV depending on how great a value you assign to the lives of our military personel. How subtle and small does anything have to be to be seen as a threat to the US to you? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > …get some fissionable material from the French… > \*\* Cite, please. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > … and start blackmailing. > \*\* Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/38 "2003-06-26T15:09:57Z")
You take a piece of a 12-year-old centrifuge, a couple of trailers, some castor beans, a bunch of documents, and MacGyver and presto… nuclear bomb! Geez, don’t you guys know anything? Although I was against this war, I actually believed that Saddam had WMDs. Pfft. This just goes from bad to worse to inane. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/39 "2003-06-26T15:30:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*I can’t believe you people. Evidence of a program to build **effing NUKES** isn’t even enough. \*\* And I can’t believe that you think this is sufficient evidence, even when our own government is saying it’s not. Spin, spin, sugar. Oh, and **BrightNShiny** … you forgot the duct tape. They can do wonders with duct tape. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392/40 "2003-06-26T15:41:04Z")
Was Shodan being sarcastic? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/centrifuge-discovery-in-iraq/184392.md?page=3)