# CERN sued by European Court of Human Rights over Large Hadron Collider **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828 "2008-09-03T05:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/1 "2008-09-03T05:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > On August 26th, a group of LHC critics filed a suit against CERN in the European Court of Human Rights, in Strasbourg . The authors of the suit are physicists, professors and students largely from Germany and Austria, who feel that the operation of the $10 billion Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, poses grave risks for the safety and well-being of the 27 member states of the European Union and their citizens. The Rule of Law, the suit states, is also threatened. The legal arguments that define the legitimacy of the suit have been crafted in German by a Professor of International Law, Adrian Hollaender. [Article here.](http://www.scientificblogging.com/big_science_gambles/suit_alleges_cern_in_violation_of_human_rights) On top of that, a new research paper has concluded that “at the present stage of knowledge there is a definite risk from mBHs production at colliders.” [Report here (Warning - PDF)](http://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.1415v1.pdf) Does this change anyone’s mind about this device or are you still certain of its safety? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/2 "2008-09-03T05:58:09Z")
I’d be willing to wager money that the earth will NOT be destroyed. Any takers? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/3 "2008-09-03T06:01:39Z")
Are the people filing the suit stupid or is it some kind of feel-good hippie organization or something? ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/4 "2008-09-03T07:00:31Z")
The collider poses risks to the EU? What, are the black holes just going to swallow Europe and then evaporate? Put it in context - we’re _all_ doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolas\_Bourbaki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@Nicolas\_Bourbaki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicolas_Bourbaki)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/5 "2008-09-03T07:43:53Z")
Well, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, innit? The only good way to show that the Earth will be destroyed by an atom smasher will be to present all the previous times the Earth has been destroyed by cosmic radiation an order of magnitude stronger. What does worry me here, though, are the charges of pollution. I vaguely recall reading about how construction of a power plant in France was held up for while because a claim was made that a town a few miles away would receive a measurable dose of radiation. The defense pointed out that actual amount over the course of a day would be about half of what one would get from the Sun. In winter. _Indoors._ The authors of the suit rebutted that humans had evolved protection to the radiation they receive from the Sun, but had no defenses whatsoever against radiation of a minuscule dosage. Upshot was that the government had to delay the groundbreaking for a few months, until they successfully contested charges of freakin’ _homeopathy_. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/6 "2008-09-03T07:55:30Z")
Is there any actual difference between the collisions that the LHC would create, and the ones that are supposedly already being caused by “cosmic rays?” Other than that the latter are more powerful? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/7 "2008-09-03T08:15:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Is there any actual difference between the collisions that the LHC would create, and the ones that are supposedly already being caused by “cosmic rays?” Other than that the latter are more powerful? Weeeell, the LHC would create artificial collisions instead of natural ones, and as we know if it’s natural (or just has a _NATURAL_ stamped on the label) it’s harmless or even beneficial for you, like such natural things as curare, magma or ebola. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/8 "2008-09-03T09:59:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Is there any actual difference between the collisions that the LHC would create, and the ones that are supposedly already being caused by “cosmic rays?” Other than that the latter are more powerful? Physically, no. The same types of collisions (i.e. involving the same particles) the LHC can produce occur naturally as well, and sometimes with energies orders of magnitude greater. However, an argument has been made that since the cosmic ray/atmospheric particle collisions take place in a center of mass system with a very high speed relative to the earth, micro black holes created in those collisions just ‘zip away’ into deep space, while possible LHC-produced MBHs would be at rest with respect to the center of the earth; but that’s again not the whole story, since while it’s true that the center of mass of the LHC’s collisions is at rest with respect to the detectors, that’s not the case for the collision products, thus, generally, a black hole created during such a collision would still have a velocity greater than earth’s escape velocity (cf. [this article](http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/04/black-holes-at-lhc-what-can-happen.html)). But still, we don’t need to fear even black holes that would be created at rest relative to the earth, since our observational data is far larger than just ‘the earth’s made it so far’ – we can also say that ‘the rest of universe has made it so far’, since, if there was a possibility for such a black hole cataclysm, it should happen measurably often in the observable universe – i.e. especially objects with a high density, such as neutron stars, for example, should wink out of existence far more often than they appear to do, which is never. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/9 "2008-09-03T10:35:57Z")
Though I have to give the opposition credit, they managed to work the LHC into THREE of the five “most likely” possible doomsday scenarios. (It’s a comedy site, yes, but it’s usually intelligent enough that my eyes don’t roll out of my head). > **[The 5 Scientific Experiments Most Likely to End the World](https://www.cracked.com/article_16583_the-5-scientific-experiments-most-likely-to-end-world.html)** > > Let's face it, we really trust science. In fact, studies suggest that the vast majority of people will murder another human being, if a guy in a lab coat tells them it's OK. > But surely in their insatiable curiosity and desire to put knowledge above... ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/10 "2008-09-03T11:12:06Z")
I too realize that article is a joke but it raises a good point, one which I have discussed before many times, usually pertaining to this exact subject. > [@](#): > > Let’s face it, we really trust science. In fact, studies suggest that the vast majority of people will murder another human being, if a guy in a lab coat tells them it’s OK. All of the LHC’s defenders keep saying that it can’t possibly pose a risk because if it did, then all these scientists involved in its creation and getting the funds for it approved and everything wouldn’t destroy the planet, would they? Why would scientists take such a huge risk like that? They’re smart people, right? They know what they’re doing, right? Well…like I’ve said, scientists are not infallible and people shouldn’t act like they are. Scientists did the Tuskeegee Experiments and infected innocent blacks with diseases. Scientists a hundred years ago said that it was perfectly okay to buy heroin and cocaine and amphetamines at a pharmacy, and they endorsed all kinds of totally unhealthy and absurd practices like colloidal silver and phrenology and “racial Darwinism” or whatever it was called. Speaking of which - who was it again that carried out experiments on Jewish prisoners in the concentration camps? Uh…scientists. The Nazis’ policy of extermination and experiments on human subjects were carried out with the full and enthusiastic complicity of the German scientific establishment, which was widely considered to be the most advanced in the world at that time. Ever hear of Unit 731? That was when the Japanese experimented on human subjects, and after they were caught by the Americans, _we agreed to not prosecute them for war crimes if they allowed us to have all of their research findings._ Science and ethics are _not inherently connected_ and have frequently been totally divorced from one another. This is why I do NOT put blind trust in any scientists and certainly not the ones involved with the LHC. Some peoples’ egos are surely huge enough that they would have no problem risking the destruction of the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/11 "2008-09-03T12:02:17Z")
Soo… The LHC will destroy the world because of Hitler. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/12 "2008-09-03T12:53:49Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > - i.e. especially objects with a high density, such as neutron stars, for example, should wink out of existence far more often than they appear to do, which is never. I casually looked at the first pages of the document the OP linked to, and the “doesn’t happen with neutron star” argument is addressed in it (I’ve no clue how well is addressed, I didn’t even _try_ to read it). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/13 "2008-09-03T14:19:29Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Soo… The LHC will destroy the world because of Hitler. Gotcha. Forgetting about war crime, I think he has a point. Society at large has a right and probably a duty to check on scientists (especially when we’re talking about the end of the world, but also concerning, say, genetic engineering, and a lot of other stuff that have or might have a significant impact on us). This control would usually be exerted by politicians (supposed to represent us) but also by courts. So, I’ve no problem with the issue being brought to the ECHR. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/14 "2008-09-03T14:23:18Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’d be willing to wager money that the earth will NOT be destroyed. Any takers? 😃 Nonsense! I run my LHC all the time and I dont get sucked into a b █ ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/15 "2008-09-03T14:41:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Forgetting about war crime, I think he has a point. Society at large has a right and probably a duty to check on scientists (especially when we’re talking about the end of the world, but also concerning, say, genetic engineering, and a lot of other stuff that have or might have a significant impact on us). This control would usually be exerted by politicians (supposed to represent us) but also by courts. So, I’ve no problem with the issue being brought to the ECHR. If that’s the point you chose to whittle from **Argent Towers** ’ post, then yes, it’s a valid one, in principle. But I was rather more objecting to his style of argumentation, which would, apart from scientists, also call into question the ethics of Americans for the slave trade and the mistreatment of American Indians, Germans for the Holocaust, and just about every other group of people you care to slice the populace into based on some heinous thing associated individuals have done however long ago. It’s a guilt by association argument – ‘members of group x did z, z is unethical, you belong to group x, therefore, you are unethical’. Though it should also be mentioned that ‘society at large’ knows crap about science, and thus, you’d need scientists to check on scientists, which is of course perfectly reasonable and pretty much exactly what’s done now, except if all scientists are of questionable ethics merely by virtue of being scientists, following **Argent** ’s line of reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/16 "2008-09-03T15:03:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I casually looked at the first pages of the document the OP linked to, and the “doesn’t happen with neutron star” argument is addressed in it (I’ve no clue how well is addressed, I didn’t even _try_ to read it). From what I saw, the paper merely claims that it is as yet unknown whether cosmic rays of high enough energy reach a neutron star’s surface, which is true for all I know; however, I believe the argument should work equally well for white dwarves, which also don’t generally get gobbled up by black holes. But the actual claim the paper is addressing is a different one anyway, namely that under certain conditions, a metastable mBH might be formed, which would radiate an enormous amount of energy while basically keeping itself alive feeding on surrounding matter – i.e. you’d have something like a constantly burning hydrogen explosion (in terms of magnitude, not mechanism). Those things, while devastating enough on an earthly scale, wouldn’t make an appreciable blip compared to the energy output of a white dwarf. However, the way the paper is presented makes me suspect that it’s essentially an exercise in finding a theory where we can find a set of parameters that might allow the formation of a probably metastable black hole – essentially, the chosen model is a very specific and very unlikely one, with lots of arbitrary assumptions and parameters. That you can find such a theory probably isn’t all that surprising, but I don’t think that it increases the likelihood of something bad happening due to the LHC’s operation above the ‘well, all of your molecules could also spontaneously tunnel to Mars’-threshold. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/17 "2008-09-03T15:34:50Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Science and ethics are _not inherently connected_ and have frequently been totally divorced from one another. This isn’t an ethical issue, though, it’s a survival issue. If the scientists get the planet destroyed, nobody commends them on their research. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/18 "2008-09-03T16:19:57Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’d be willing to wager money that the earth will NOT be destroyed. Any takers? 😃 Sure. So if the world blows up and all life blinks out of existance in an instant and everything that is just ceases to be, you owe me, like, a million bucks and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/19 "2008-09-03T20:34:48Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Are the people filing the suit stupid Or ignorant. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828/20 "2008-09-03T21:52:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This isn’t an ethical issue, though, it’s a survival issue. If the scientists get the planet destroyed, nobody commends them on their research. Well obviously they don’t _think_ they’re going to destroy the world. But the Nazi scientists didn’t think they were going to get caught - they assumed that Germany would win the war and take over the world and they would be made heroes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cern-sued-by-european-court-of-human-rights-over-large-hadron-collider/461828.md?page=2)