# Certain Languages Change The Names Of Geographic Places - Can You Provide Examples? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 28, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681 "2005-03-28T22:41:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/1 "2005-03-28T22:41:38Z")
I don’t know if my general question has a specific answer - so I’m gonna put this into IMHO. I guess this query is a combination: _what_ languages, _which_ places and _why_ thread poll. In English, there are quite a number of places in which the native name of a location is changed to the point of being completely unrecognizable. I’m not talking about oceans, deserts, mountains or seas - I’m referring to places people live. I don’t know if my OP title is clear - what I’m trying to figure out is why do English speaking peoples refer to (for example): **Osterreich as Austria**? Instead or either what Austrians refer to it as - or as it translates: Eastern State. Maybe it’s the umlaut. **Espana as Spain**? Is it because of that squiggly thing over the ‘N’? **Italia as Italy** or **Roma as Rome**? It can’t be a spelling thing in this case. And if you ask me, the native names of those places sound much nicer. **Deutschland as Germany**? I realize the word Germany probably has it English roots on the pre-unification Germanic tribes - but the people of Germany call themselves Deutch and their nation Deutschland - Why don’t the English speaking people do the same? Anyway, I’m admittedly ignorant about most other languages. I know the Spanish refer to the the city I live in as Neuva York - and that I completely understand. They chose to translate the word new into their language, which is fine by me. On the other hand, if the Spanish chose instead to refer to NY as Taco Delmingo, I’d be a little perplexed. Poll Question: Do you know any non-English languages where the geographical names of English-speaking places are changed as dramatically as **Schweiz** being referred to as **Switzerland**? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/2 "2005-03-28T23:11:21Z")
Belgium’s full of them, of course, and the French towns near the border have other names with the Flemings. Some towns have different names depending on if you speak Dutch or French: Mons/ Bergen (a translation issue), Braine-la-Chateau/ Brakel (also translation), Liege/ Luik/ Lüttich (last one the German version), Gent/Gand/Ghent, Lille in Flemish is Rijssel; Colonge/ Köln/ Keulen. Why? Sometimes things are easier to pronounce, from the time first contact was made or later; or the name was transliterated into a new language at one point and then the pronounciation shifted or transliteration was improved (Beijing/ Peking) or the name is a toponym that’s been literally translated (like Mons/ Bergen: “Mountain” or “Hill” or something; Austria in Spanish and English (from Latin root I suppose), Österreich, Oostenrijk: eastern kingdom). Sometimes it’s that these people call themselves “The True Human Noble People on the Earth” and their neigbors call the same group “Filthy Eaters of Dog” or “The Barbarians who Can’t Speak Correctly.” Or a third group asked the second group here who the first were and got the nasty version (I think this was the case with some indigineous American groups-- isn’t that the deal with “Eskimo” for the Inuit, or is that UL?) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/3 "2005-03-28T23:45:10Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Poll Question: Do you know any non-English languages where the geographical names of English-speaking places are changed as dramatically as **Schweiz** being referred to as **Switzerland**? ```auto Danish Schweiz Dutch Zwitserland English Switzerland Finnish Sveitsi French Suisse German Schweiz Greek Ελβετία Hungarian Svájc Italian Svizzera Portuguese Suíça Spanish Suiza Swedish Schweiz Polish Szwajcaria Russian Швейцария Arabic سويسرا Japanese スイス ``` ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/4 "2005-03-29T00:06:30Z")
Oops, I posted before I finished. Seems like several of those names for Switzerland would give the English version a good run - Dutch, obviously, and perhaps Polish as well. And Greek uses a form of the Roman name for the country: Helvetia, which the name the Swiss themselves use on coins. This happens in all languages. Spanish calls Norge _Noruega_ (Norway), Deutschland _Alemania_ (Germany), and Sverige _Suecia_ (Sweden). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/5 "2005-03-29T00:09:35Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > **Deutschland as Germany**? I realize the word Germany probably has it English roots on the pre-unification Germanic tribes - but the people of Germany call themselves Deutch and their nation Deutschland - Why don’t the English speaking people do the same? The Master speaks: [Why are there so many names for Germany, AKA Deutschland, Allemagne, etc.?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_162.html) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/6 "2005-03-29T08:03:56Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Poll Question: Do you know any non-English languages where the geographical names of English-speaking places are changed as dramatically as **Schweiz** being referred to as **Switzerland**? In French England, Scotland, and Wales are Angleterre, Ecosse, and Pays de Galles; across the Atlantic Newfoundland is Terre-Neuve. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/7 "2005-03-29T08:08:11Z")
Well, Japanese does this for almost all place names, simply because it lacks the sounds to render them exactly in their native pronunciation. A few that really get changed, though: England - Igirisu (no idea where that came from) America - Beikoku (long and torturous explanation for where this comes from (and why the characters mean “Rice Country”). Despite being used in the _South Park_ Chinpokomon episode, nobody actually uses it when speaking, only when writing (and then not very often). The common name is Amerika) China - Chuugoku (“Middle Kingdom”) Korea - Kankoku North Korea - Kita Chousen Soviet Union - Soren And then there’s that whole Nippon/Japan thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/8 "2005-03-29T10:32:06Z")
IMHO I’d imagine that it comes down to history - was a place significant enough to merit a translation into your language and did you feel that you needed to ‘explain’ what that place was? Did you and that place have a shared linguistic heritage ? Did you first come into contact with that place while your language was still evolving? I’d guess that the names of the Latin American countries are the same in most languages as they are recent inventions. The ‘angle’ root of England is common to most European languages as they ‘decided’ on the name for the country the Angles were the dominant tribe but the Welsh for England (Lloegyr) means ‘lost land’ and the English for Cymru (Wales) means ‘land of foreigners’. The only English cities / towns with their ‘Welsh’ names are those such as Oxford (Rhydychen) which were of enough significance to Welsh people to need a name. Between France and England the places where the names are changed (although not unrecognisably) are ports like ‘Dunkirk/Dunkirque’, ‘Dover/Douvres’ and the capital cities. The ones that confuse me are when the name of the country and the name of the nationality differ in Italian for example German is Tedesco but the country in Germania … oh and I have no idea where Polish, which has guessable Francja and Brytania, gets ‘Wlochy’ for Italy ! ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/9 "2005-03-29T13:43:42Z")
Key West, the westernmost island in the Florida Keys, evolved out of the French for bone due to many animal bones there IIRC. I think the word for bone looked related to the root “osteo-”, maybe something like “ousse”, which sounds like “wes”. At lest, this is what I heard. What we call “Munich” in the US is spelled “Meunchen” in Munich. Actually, instead of the “eu” they use a “u” with an umlaut, but I understand “eu” is a correct substitute when you don’t know how to get an umlauted character (which on SDMB I don’t). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/10 "2005-03-29T14:08:46Z")
For some reason, people who speak English insist on referring to Sevilla as Seville Zaragoza as Saragossa and on doing funny things to the pronunciation of most other towns (poor Barcelona becomes something that sounds like Barrsiiilunah, Burgos becomes Baugou, Toledo becomes Tolido) Key West comes from the Spanish Cayo Hueso. Cayo is a small island, Hueso means bone. Key Biscayne is Cayo Vizcaino - the guy who first mapped that area was from Vizcaya. A lot of these come from an effort to conserve the original pronunciation while not asking “how do you spell it” - the same happens to my name, which is spelled Mariluz in Spanish but MariLou in English. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/11 "2005-03-29T14:35:39Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > The ones that confuse me are when the name of the country and the name of the nationality differ The best example in English is probably “Dutch” for people from the Netherlands/Holland. In Latin America everyone calls people from Costa Rica _ticos_, although _costarricense_ exists. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/12 "2005-03-29T16:37:06Z")
Could the English names of very old cities of common parlance have evolved in the same way that common words of the language did? Many nouns in Old English had complex systems of case endings which mostly merged to _-e_ and eventually became silenced. We all know that the terminal _e_s used to be pronounced; if you try that on the word “Rome” it sounds an awful lot like “Roma”. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/13 "2005-03-29T16:43:18Z")
Canada being a bilingual country, there are official lists as to which geographical names are translated and which are not. All provinces have bilingual names: in about half the cases, they’re the same except that the French has a definite article (_la Saskatchewan_), but in the other half, the name is translated (_la Nouvelle-Écosse, la Colombie-Britannique, Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador, l’Île-du-Prince-Édouard, les Territoires du Nord-Ouest_). The rest are “features of pan-Canadian geographical interest” (large important ones, or ones of which most Canadians have heard: Hudson Bay/_la baie d’Hudson_, the St. Lawrence River/_le fleuve Saint-Laurent_, Cape Breton Island/_l’île du Cap-Breton_. According to the federal government, with very few exceptions names of cities are not to be translated; you are therefore supposed to write “Québec” or “the city or Québec” in both official languages, not Quebec City. (Since _provinces_ are translated, of course, you’re supposed to write “Québec, Quebec”. :rolleyes: ) Needless to say, nobody does this and English speakers universally call it Quebec City. As for names of other geographical, there’s nothing at all unusual about languages having their own names for places where they speak other languages. Languages have their own names for nearly all countries, (most of the exceptions being very recently created ones, though not even all of those – although it asked to be called _Timor-Leste_, nearly all English speakers call it _East Timor,_ and even Côte d’Ivoire is still working on it). > [@](#): > > The best example in English is probably “Dutch” for people from the Netherlands/Holland. As I understand it, the word originally meant German (_Deutsch_); there are a few early citations for the word in that sense, and of course there’s the German-speaking Pennsylvania Dutch; somehow it got applied to a Germanic-speaking people next door. > [@](#): > > In Latin America everyone calls people from Costa Rica ticos, although costarricense exists. Doesn’t “tico” come from the Costa Rican habit of using the diminutive suffix _-tico_ as a diminutive (as other Spanish dialects use _-ito_)? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/14 "2005-03-29T17:27:01Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > As I understand it, the word originally meant German (_Deutsch_); there are a few early citations for the word in that sense, and of course there’s the German-speaking Pennsylvania Dutch; somehow it got applied to a Germanic-speaking people next door. Actually, it has been pretty common in the U.S. to refer to anyone of German extraction as a “Dutchman” - more so in the past than it is now. One case is baseball Hall-of-Famer John “Honus” Wagner, of German extraction, whose knickname was “The Flying Dutchman.” Another is the German-Jewish gangster Arthur Simon Flegenheimer, aka “Dutch Schultz.” > [@](#): > > Doesn’t “tico” come from the Costa Rican habit of using the diminutive suffix _-tico_ as a diminutive (as other Spanish dialects use _-ito_)? That’s my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/15 "2005-03-29T17:39:19Z")
I’m told that in France, Versailles is “Vair-sigh,” with that French growl on the r. The town of Versailles in Indiana, US, is “Ver-sails.” ---
**Author:** ![Mithril](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mithril/32/3517_2.png) [@Mithril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithril)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/16 "2005-03-29T18:54:57Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > What we call “Munich” in the US is spelled “Meunchen” in Munich. Actually, instead of the “eu” they use a “u” with an umlaut, but I understand “eu” is a correct substitute when you don’t know how to get an umlauted character (which on SDMB I don’t). Close. ‘ue’ is the substitute for u with an um laut. ‘Eu’ is pronounced like ‘oy’ (Remember Euler’s method in math class?). Munich is Muenchen auf Deutsch. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/17 "2005-03-29T20:45:48Z")
Previous threads on this topic: > **[Why Beijing but not München?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285753)** > > I guess it was in the 80’s when Peking suddenly was transformed to Beijing. Bombay might have been less succesful in changing to Mumbay and for all I know, it’s only the Greeks that call their country Hellas. Why was it so important to change... > **[Names of foreign places](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=42924)** > > Why are we Americans so inconsistent in our usage of foreign place names? Sometimes we leave the name in its native language (San Juan, Beijing, Botswana), while we Anglicize other names (Norway, Japan, Moscow)? We have even changed some over the... ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/18 "2005-03-29T22:35:50Z")
The bottom line is that all languages do things like this, for a combination of historical and linguistic reasons. Compiling a list is entertaining, but not very enlightening. Ed ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/19 "2005-03-30T06:17:03Z")
my japanese is weak. but i’ll try anyway till someone corrects me. > [@Sublight](#): > > … England - Igirisu (no idea where that came from) sounds like ‘english’ to me. > [@](#): > > America - Beikoku (long and torturous explanation for where this comes from (and why the characters mean “Rice Country”). Despite being used in the _South Park_ Chinpokomon episode, nobody actually uses it when speaking, only when writing (and then not very often). The common name is Amerika) this sounds like the chinese word for America. (mei guo) > [@](#): > > China - Chuugoku (“Middle Kingdom”) from the chinese word for China. (zhong guo) > [@](#): > > Korea - Kankoku from the chinese word for Korea. (han guo) > [@](#): > > North Korea - Kita Chousen from the chinese word for North Korea. (bei chao xian) > [@](#): > > Soviet Union - Soren from the chinese word for the Soviet Union. (su lian) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681/20 "2005-03-30T11:01:53Z")
Chinese place names have changed considerably. More accurately, the romanization/standardization of chinese has changed. Peking to beijing, Nanking to Nanjing, Canton to Guangzhou, etc. Basically, global media switched to the mainland pinyin system about 1980 and all these place names then switched to the new nomenclature. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/certain-languages-change-the-names-of-geographic-places-can-you-provide-examples/296681.md?page=2)