Champions Online MMORPG in the works

[Brainiac4]

@Lobohan

I posted at length above what the problems are. If you aren’t going to even address my points I’m done talking to you about them. Hate CoX, it’s your prerogative after all.

You posted what you see the problems as being. Dangerosa seems to be pointing out that she doesn’t share your viewpoint.

I’m not entirely sure I do, either. There is, from my viewpoint, really only one valid reason to make a change to the game: increasing player enjoyment, which presumably aids player retention and thus drives revenue from subscriptions.

ED, insofar as it made different build strategies necessary, made the game more balanced, but not more enjoyable. Someone else leveling faster or slower doesn’t affect me at all. CoH, prior to the Consignment Market, had no player-driven economy component, and all missions are instanced. Apart from street hunting and roleplaying, there was basically no interaction between characters… aside from PvP.

So unless you’re engaging in PvP, or you really really care that someone else is more or less effective than you are, the change didn’t really affect you – aside from, as Dangerosa pointed out, making you respec your character, which is not necessarily something that everyone enjoys.

I get that you feel that ED made the game better, and for the most part I agree (although I don’t agree that ED was/is a necessary prerequisite to Inventions), but I had the same reaction to it that Dangerosa did – “Why are they telling me I’m not playing the game right? Why are they telling me I’m not having fun, when I am?” *That *is what the key problem was – not the change, but the way it was framed when it was made.

By the way, ED doesn’t “free me” from having six-slotted damage in my attacks. The diminishing returns of ED encourage me to do other things, but I was already reserving at least one slot for ACC – it doesn’t matter how much damage you do if you miss.

Side question: how long have you been playing CoH?

[D_Odds]

Before ED, like B4, I always had at least one slot for ACC. Then, depending on the attack, I would either 4 or 5 slot damage. I like attacks that stun, so I often would slot a Disorient Duration (Sappers can’t sap if their staggering, and it lasts longer than KB), and my (still) pre-pet controller can barely hurt a fly (but nobody moves for entire fights).

I will admit to feeling less capable in PUGs, which I would use to do Task Force missions. I didn’t have a cookie-cutter build (until changes made one of my builds a ‘new’ cookie cutter build), and I didn’t use cookie cutter tactics. I like ED, because it removed what I felt was the ‘burden’ of Hasten in builds. Now I have a slot reserved for recharge. I still occassionally get a beat or two of downtime in my attack chains (especially at long range), but I now have another attack I didn’t have room for pre-hasten.

No one is arguing that is was a bad idea. People are arguing that it was shoved down players throats in a poor manner, with Emmert pretty much saying RTFM. As I said, that is a very dismissive statement.

[Skywatcher]

@Dangerosa

And? I don’t get why someone else leveling faster or breezing through enemies impacts your game. You want a challenge, play differently. I don’t see how this destabilizes my game or your game at all. Why does the game need to be balanced?

The game would stagnate, as I said. How could the devs add any sort of new content? Why introduce PvP? Why introduce IOs?

Can you imagine the result if content & PvP were added without addressing anything? The result would still have been one set of players getting a new playstyle forced down their throat.

[Skywatcher]

@Brainiac4

I don’t agree that ED was/is a necessary prerequisite to Inventions

Any incentive to use them would have been roughly nil.

[Skywatcher]

Jack Emmert on Cryptic’s success (and failure)

They decided to make an MMO without any serious MMO experience and honestly never considered the potential of players min/maxing or searching for every possible way to exploit the game. The Cryptic team played the game and thought it was fun without seeing the potential issues a massively multiplayer environment would present.

[D_Odds]

That’s what I said!

[D_Odds]

Another quote:

It’s pretty nice to see Jack Emmert quoted saying, “I think we’re kind of passed the point of forced teaming.”

[Skywatcher]

@D_Odds

That’s what I said!

Now you have it straight from State’s mouth.

Or rather from State’s mouth via Massively.

[Brainiac4]

@Lute Skywatcher

The game would stagnate, as I said. How could the devs add any sort of new content? Why introduce PvP? Why introduce IOs?

Can you imagine the result if content & PvP were added without addressing anything? The result would still have been one set of players getting a new playstyle forced down their throat.

I’m not seeing the connection. Why does other people’s play speed have any effect on me? With or without ED, you could add new content, which people would experience either slowly or quickly, depending on how “optimized” their build was. PvP would be a problem, but it’s a problem with or without ED – different archetypes and powersets simply are more or less effective against certain others. Witness the continual attempts to “balance” PvP.

And, as pointed out before, the real problem isn’t the change. It’s the attitude with which the change was presented. I get that some people feel it was a necessary change. Do you get that others have a different point of view?

Jack Emmert didn’t seem to grasp that alternative points of view were worthy of anything more than ridicule, and that really bothered me. Which hasn’t prevented me from signing up for an account at Champions Online, I should add. Despite my dislike for the lame-ass Champions Universe, I’m just a sucker for superhero gaming.

[Brainiac4]

@Lute Skywatcher

Any incentive to use them would have been roughly nil.

I’m not getting this either. Do you mean the incentive to use the sets would be nil, since they span multiple types of enhancement? Because with or without ED, the incentive to use a crafted enhancement that delivers greater benefit than an SO and never decays is pretty damn strong.

[Skywatcher]

@Brainiac4

I’m not seeing the connection. Why does other people’s play speed have any effect on me? With or without ED, you could add new content, which people would experience either slowly or quickly, depending on how “optimized” their build was.

People can still progress quickly via powerleveling. And what happens? They zoom to 50 then complain there’s nothing to do.

Sure, the devs could have added content without adjusting anything but that would have meant the min/maxers zooming to 50 and complaining there’s nothing to do or they could have made it harder for everyone and essentially force the diversifiers to join the min/maxers. That’s when it becomes a problem for me, it’s the mirror image of the ED problem.

[Skywatcher]

@Brainiac4

Do you mean the incentive to use the sets would be nil, since they span multiple types of enhancement?

That, and it would mean unslotting all those damage enhancements.

[D_Odds]

@Lute Skywatcher

People can still progress quickly via powerleveling. And what happens? They zoom to 50 then complain there’s nothing to do.

That has been, and will continue to be, an issue with any MMORPG. For some, high level fastest is how they “win”. Then once they “win”, they complain, usually the longest and the loudest.

@Brainiac4

Despite my dislike for the lame-ass Champions Universe

Keep this up, and you and I are going to have to throw down. Of all the roleplaying I’ve done, Champions was the longest running and most fun of any campaign (followed by Traveller and Shadowrun). I like Foxbat, Ultron (I mean Mechanon) and Doctor Doom (oops, Dr. Destroyer).

[Brainiac4]

@D_Odds

Keep this up, and you and I are going to have to throw down. Of all the roleplaying I’ve done, Champions was the longest running and most fun of any campaign (followed by Traveller and Shadowrun). I like Foxbat, Ultron (I mean Mechanon) and Doctor Doom (oops, Dr. Destroyer).

Champions is probably my favorite RPG ever. But as you yourself point out, the universe is incredibly derivative. The game’s great, but the setting sucks. I liked making my own heroes better. For one thing, you get to be the stars of the story, instead of being the also-rans.

[Pleonast]

@Brainiac4

Champions is probably my favorite RPG ever. But as you yourself point out, the universe is incredibly derivative. The game’s great, but the setting sucks. I liked making my own heroes better. For one thing, you get to be the stars of the story, instead of being the also-rans.

Until Champions Online was announced, I had no idea there was an official Champions setting. I thought it was only a rules set. My gaming group certainly never used the setting or even recognized its existence.

[Brainiac4]

@Pleonast

Until Champions Online was announced, I had no idea there was an official Champions setting. I thought it was only a rules set. My gaming group certainly never used the setting or even recognized its existence.

Consider yourself lucky.

[D_Odds]

@Brainiac4

Consider yourself lucky.

Alright, that’s it! Pistols at dawn, sir!

Of course, I’ll come to you with a submachine gun at 3:00am, but don’t worry about that.

[Brainiac4]

@D_Odds

Alright, that’s it! Pistols at dawn, sir!

Of course, I’ll come to you with a submachine gun at 3:00am, but don’t worry about that.

My Fire Imps will greet you at the door.