# Champlain Towers South in Miami has caved in {2021-06-24} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 24, 2021, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931 "2021-06-24T09:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/542 "2021-07-10T21:11:32Z")
Sorry wp ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/543 "2021-07-10T21:22:58Z")
Probably. I’m not an insurance expert but I don’t think that’s a standard exclusion, and frankly, I don’t think total collapse of the structure is a foreseeable consequence of a few neglected concrete repairs. Your homeowners insurance covers your house even if the fire or flood was your fault, as long as it was accidental. Now, the insurance company may be able to sue any parties that it deems negligent, if it can find them. Architects typically carry E&O (errors and omissions) insurance that covers any liability resulting from their mistakes, although I’m not really sure how that would work on a 40 year old building. And the underlying land has a LOT of value, probably WAY more than the value of the building that sat on it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/544 "2021-07-10T21:51:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I assume that 11 on that floor plan does not correspond to unit 611, which is the two-bedroom unit with a YouTube video linked to upthread? Because 11 on the floor plan seems to show a one-bedroom unit and unit 611 is a two-bed, two-bath unit. If you look closer at the floor plan it’s a 2 bed 2 bath unit. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/545 "2021-07-10T22:06:34Z")
That floor plan is a general one for floors 2 - 10. The main floor had the lobby and offices which altered the plan a little. And the 11th and 12th had a couple of bigger units so not as many in number. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/546 "2021-07-10T22:31:46Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > The main floor had the lobby and offices which altered the plan a little. Actually the main floor only had three apts. Those corresponding to x1, x11, and x12. But they had huge private patios, much bigger than the balconies. It’s hard to tell (because the construction plans list the units by letters), but, it looks like the 11th and 12th had either 8 or 10 units depending on how they finally joined them. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/547 "2021-07-10T22:39:33Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > Hopefully the insurance settles quickly and the funds disbursed so the owners get some of their money sooner rather than later. This is going to be an absolute Bonanza for insurance companies. Every condo in the nation is going to be checking their insurance and wondering “is that enough?”. Every insurance company in the nation is going to be sucking their teeth and saying “I’m sorry, rates are up this year.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/548 "2021-07-11T01:49:38Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Actually the main floor only had three apts. Those corresponding to x1, x11, and x12. But they had huge private patios, much bigger than the balconies. That explains the terracing you see in Google Earth. the 3 ground floor units are a reverse Penthouse. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/549 "2021-07-11T01:51:43Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > This is going to be an absolute Bonanza for insurance companies. Every condo in the nation is going to be checking their insurance and wondering “is that enough?”. Every insurance company in the nation is going to be sucking their teeth and saying “I’m sorry, rates are up this year.” I think you’re going to see insurance companies asking for updated structural certification before they renew policies. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/550 "2021-07-11T05:25:47Z")
> **[Review prompted by building collapse closes Miami courthouse](https://apnews.com/article/business-lifestyle-health-courts-miami-f2934f1febdb5e82eabe3be2bac0b026)** > > Officials say the Miami-Dade County Courthouse will begin undergoing repairs immediately because of safety concerns found during a review prompted by the deadly collapse of a nearby condominium building. > [@](#): > > In its report, engineering firm U.S. Structures Inc. said that during its June 30 inspection, it found structural distress in various structural members such as support beams and joists, including steel columns that are in “poor condition” and concrete columns that have numerous cracks. > > “In general, we observed numerous members with visible signs of structural deterioration that have been documented and reported by this and other firms for quite some time now. Many of these members are in an advance state of deterioration,” inspector Jose Toledo wrote in the firm’s Tuesday letter to Miami-Dade County officials. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/551 "2021-07-12T01:02:05Z")
If the county engineers aren’t keeping up with public assets that doesn’t bode well. It looks like they’re getting close to the garage area. Shouldn’t be long before they’ve recovered everybody and we can see the base structure of the building. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/552 "2021-07-12T04:05:52Z")
I served many years as president of a highrise condo building in Chicago built the same year, with similar concrete framing, as Champlain Towers South. I’m dubious that the building’s reserve study would even have a line item for the concrete structural frame of the building (neither of the studies I have handy for my building do), though it might be different in a salt-air seaside community. They look only at the building components that have known, limited lifespans. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/553 "2021-07-13T04:18:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It looks like they’re getting close to the garage area. Shouldn’t be long before they’ve recovered everybody and we can see the base structure of the building. The heat must be a factor in the condition of the bodies. The odor can help identify where to look in the rubble. The people searching will need a lot of counseling to deal with their experiences. They recovered three little kids today. 😢 > **[3 children ages 5, 6 and 9 identified in Surfside, Florida condo collapse](https://abc7ny.com/luis-vicente-pettengill-lopez-moreira-sophia-lpez-alexia-maria-surfside/10881128/)** > > As operations at the Surfside collapse site continue into third week, officials identified three of the youngest victims on Sunday, ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/554 "2021-07-13T04:24:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The heat must be a factor in the condition of the bodies. The odor can help identify where to look in the rubble. Years ago, a friend of mine joined a search party for a missing person in the bush in British Columbia. At a certain point, he suddenly smelt something and knew they were very close to the body. He said it was indescribable - he knew immediately that it was a dead human body, unlike other odours he had encountered of dead animal carcasses. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/555 "2021-07-13T04:43:15Z")
Interesting. I have come across decaying animal carcasses before and found them pretty much the same, odorwise. I wonder if the difference could be definable. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/556 "2021-07-13T14:33:18Z")
I’ve been told human decay is an overpowering, pungent, sweet smell. Thankfully, I haven’t experienced it. I’ve smelled small animals in the woods and near roads. Possums, skunks, coons. That’s bad enough. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/557 "2021-07-13T15:52:38Z")
Analysis of a recently released video of the garage. This was a potential condo buyer that visited the building last year. The engineer explains how a slab can crack diagonally between 4 columns that creates a X. There’s evidence of that diagonal cracking on the garage ceiling. Indicating the slab is under stress. Unfortunately a lot of the cracks are covered with corrugated plastic sheets. They were installed to prevent drips on the cars. A band-aid repair that may be hiding serious problems. I’ve seen other analysis of this video. What’s visible is cause for concern but there’s nothing that indicates imminent collapse. Whatever is happening under the pool can’t be seen. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ZAIJsaSo4Sw/maxresdefault.jpg "Surfside Building Collapse - Did the Champlain Towers South Garage Provide Warning Signs in 2020?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIJsaSo4Sw) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/558 "2021-07-13T16:51:36Z")
It’s really too early for any definitive answers, but I’ve… I’m not sure “enjoyed” is the word I want here … I’ve been interested in several videos of this sort where people with knowledge in this area discuss what we know so far, particularly those NOT jumping to definitive conclusions but rather making it clear they don’t have all the answers or actual first-hand on-site experience. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/559 "2021-07-13T22:19:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve seen other analysis of this video. What’s visible is cause for concern but there’s nothing that indicates imminent collapse. what this guy was talking about was a crack pattern that indicated stress. What I found interesting was a question I’ve had for a long time but never answered. Does concrete create stalactites? I’ve seem them in old tunnels built of brick but never in a building. According to the commentary in the video there were stalactites in the ceiling of the garage. Those things take a long time to form. Anywhere from an avg of .0051 in/yr to .12 in/yr. We don’t know how fast they formed but there should be a record of the injection plugs. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/560 "2021-07-13T22:22:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Does concrete create stalactites? I’ve seem them in old tunnels built of brick but never in a building. According to the commentary in the video there were stalactites in the ceiling of the garage. There was a multi-level parking garage that I used to occasionally use, 20+ years ago, when I was working at my first job in downtown Chicago. Concrete-and-steel construction, not in great condition, and I definitely remember seeing some small-ish stalactites in the ceiling there. (Said parking garage has long since been torn down and replaced with an office building.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/561 "2021-07-13T22:38:21Z")
Any idea how old the garage was when you saw the stalactites? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931.md?page=29)