# Champlain Towers South in Miami has caved in {2021-06-24}
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** breaking-news
**Created:** [June 24, 2021, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931 "2021-06-24T09:42:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/41 "2021-06-24T19:21:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> Video of collapse. I’m also hearing speculation that a sinkhole may be to blame.
>
> [https://twitter.com/AndySlater/status/1408051917964595202?s=19](https://twitter.com/AndySlater/status/1408051917964595202?s=19)
Holy shit! Was this a fully occupied apartment complex? There could be hundreds of deaths. That video is terrifying!
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/42 "2021-06-24T19:25:33Z")
Unfortunately it was. Dozens are missing.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/43 "2021-06-24T19:28:17Z")
The Miami Herald is currently saying that there are 99 who appear to be missing at this point, and another 53 have been accounted for. Truly frightening.
> **[Condo collapse live updates: 159 people are missing, here are some being...](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article252325348.html)**
>
> 6/26/2021: Click here for Saturday’s new updates on Surfside’s building collapse.
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### Author:  [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/44 "2021-06-24T19:43:52Z")
I’d be very concerned if I lived anywhere near there.
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### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/45 "2021-06-24T19:44:12Z")
Obviously this isn’t at all scientific but that video looks like the failure started at or below the ground level. It looks like the center section was undermined.
Sinkhole was my first assumption and that video looks like what I’d imagine a building built over a sinkhole would do. Still, high rises like this should be moored to bedrock or equivalent so that still doesn’t really explain it all the way.
Going to be a major, major tragedy. For comparison the Oklahoma City Bombing killed 168, I bet this number is in the same ballpark when it’s all accounted for.
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### Author:  [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/46 "2021-06-24T20:03:34Z")
I’m feeling now it could certainly be associated with a [Collapse](https://www.sfcollege.edu/batcave/the-area/types-of-florida-sinkholes) Sinkhole.
Sudden and catastrophic. Limestone bedrock is porous, issues with saltwater intrusion, older infrastructure issues , water main breaks, it can be impossible to tell where and when it happens?
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/47 "2021-06-24T20:05:18Z")
I am ready to blame crooked inspectors in Miami. They even impress my Chicago-based contractors.
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### Author:  [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/48 "2021-06-24T20:13:20Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> Video of collapse. I’m also hearing speculation that a sinkhole may be to blame.
>
> [https://twitter.com/AndySlater/status/1408051917964595202?s=19](https://twitter.com/AndySlater/status/1408051917964595202?s=19)
Yeah, this was my immediate reaction, too, as this isn’t a newly constructed building.
Either it was some undetected latent flaw either in its design or execution that took a long time to exhibit itself - which I wouldn’t think would necessarily be catastrophic like this, i.e., the building should start creaking, cracking, etc., for a bit before collapsing…
…or the collapse was related to the fact that much of the ground in Florida is sinking in due to the effects of climate change. And some kind of uneven sinking of the ground beneath the building could result in stresses that could leverage into something catastrophic.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/49 "2021-06-24T20:14:56Z")
> [@robardin](#):
>
> …or the collapse was related to the fact that much of the ground in Florida is sinking in due to the effects of climate change. And some kind of uneven sinking of the ground beneath the building could result in stresses that could leverage into something catastrophic.
Add to that reports of vibrations due to construction near by…
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### Author:  [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/50 "2021-06-24T20:34:01Z")
CNN has numerous large photos available. It looks like the building is supported by free standing columns about 18" to 24" square. The open space between them is for parking. I wonder if a car could have accidentally rammed a column?
> **[Photos: Deadly building collapse near Miami | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/24/us/gallery/photos-building-collapse-near-miami/index.html)**
>
> A residential building partially collapsed in the South Florida community of Surfside on June 24. Search teams have been sifting through the rubble at Champlain Towers South, which is a few miles north of Miami Beach.
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### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/51 "2021-06-24T20:35:17Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#):
>
> Add to that reports of vibrations due to construction near by…
I suspect this this totally unrelated. First, this occurred around 2AM. No construction was happening at the time. Second, any vibration from construction equipment is not going to have anywhere close to the energy needed to create a liquifaction event.
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### Author:  [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/52 "2021-06-24T20:35:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> > [@carrps](#):
> >
> > Open concept. I want open concept. Tear down those walls! I’d hope they’d have someone inspecting that kind of work, though.
>
> My Wife watches a program where that is done to improve a house. I wince when they gleefully begin tearing things apart.
The trope seems to be that they want an open concept, start tearing down the wall, then tell the homeowner that they discovered that the wall is load bearing and they need to pony up another $10k (or whatever) for a reinforcing beam. For a while it seemed like that was happening on every episode of every remodeling show.
I seem to remember issues with contractors using beach sand in the concrete of various projects, with the concrete failing years later because of salt from the beach sand.
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### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/53 "2021-06-24T20:39:31Z")
I want to know what the heck is going on with that first big photo…the columns over the parking structure with the 72/73 painted on it looks like it pancaked down itself. This implies that the part of the structure still standing collapsed uniformly and managed to stay upright, which probably saved hundreds of lives.
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### Author:  [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/54 "2021-06-24T20:52:04Z")
From the second photo it looks like just a few of the columns are damaged in that way. Most of the rest of them are intact. It also looks like the ground under those damaged columns is sinking - look at the angles of the cars parked there vs. the ones closer to the front of the building.
The collapsed building looks like a stack of pancakes - reminds me of the lift slap construction accident a ways back where the highest floor collapsed causing a chain reaction of each lower floor collapsing in turn.
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### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/55 "2021-06-24T20:56:37Z")
I think it’s the 7th photo shows what looks like a bubbled/indented ground area just in front of the pool. Not sure if this the edge of a sinkhole of it is just the result of a pressure wave from the collapse.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/56 "2021-06-24T21:11:35Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#):
>
> The trope seems to be that they want an open concept, start tearing down the wall, then tell the homeowner that they discovered that the wall is load bearing and they need to pony up another $10k (or whatever) for a reinforcing beam.
I think I’d require a contract with those guys before they began removing things.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/57 "2021-06-24T21:14:04Z")
> [@Omniscient](#):
>
> I think it’s the 7th photo shows what looks like a bubbled/indented ground area just in front of the pool. Not sure if this the edge of a sinkhole of it is just the result of a pressure wave from the collapse.
I was wondering that, too, but now that I’ve looked at some of the larger photographs from ground level I wonder if there was an underground level to the parking at the building and the falling debris punched down the street level into that lower level. A lower level like that could also have a lot of the required infrastructure for the swimming pool, too.
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### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/58 "2021-06-24T21:18:59Z")
I considered that too, but with there being what looks like 2 levels of above ground parking directly under the building that seems less likely.
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### Author:  [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/59 "2021-06-24T21:50:24Z")
8777 Collins Ave
> **[8777 Collins Ave · 8777 Collins Ave, Surfside, FL 33154](https://maps.app.goo.gl/SXrrwZS6ixNupZu9A)**
>
> 8777 Collins Ave, Surfside, FL 33154
This is the satellite view of the building. Looks like the center section (where the red arrow is) collapsed first. Then the ell on the right came down. So about 2/3 of the building came down.
Eta: I thought the satellite pic would show but apparently you need the map app to see it…
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/60 "2021-06-24T21:53:16Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#):
>
> The trope seems to be that they want an open concept,
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> I think I’d require a contract with those guys before they began removing things.
Hey, this is a disaster that’s still unfolding. Let’s save the side discussions for later, or move them to another thread, please.
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