# Champlain Towers South in Miami has caved in {2021-06-24} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 24, 2021, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931 "2021-06-24T09:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/582 "2021-07-15T19:22:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > She must have walked right over the same area on her way to the lobby Not necessarily. She could’ve walked down the hall. And she said she heard banging (construction like noises) which doesn’t necessarily mean pieces falling. It could’ve been the noises and movements of the concrete, precollapse. So the pool deck/parking garage still could’ve been the first collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/583 "2021-07-15T20:26:10Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Not necessarily. She could’ve walked down the hall. That’s true. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > And she said she heard banging (construction like noises) which doesn’t necessarily mean pieces falling. It could’ve been the noises and movements of the concrete, precollapse. So the pool deck/parking garage still could’ve been the first collapse. Well, both describe the building shaking before the deck collapses and the construction noises were described as very loud and something falling although the sounds were associated with the level above. So I think the building itself was in serious distress before the deck collapsed and we do have pictures of what looks like debris from the view of the garage entrance. I would suggest that a shaking building requires something serious going on for that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/584 "2021-07-15T20:50:28Z")
No doubt. Whether the deck was the first to fail or some other part, it’s pretty clear that the irreversible process had started. However, the exact order of events is going to be important in determining the exact cause and what should be done to prevent future collapses. Unfortunately, for us, eyewitness recollections are notoriously unreliable. Did these people actually see the pool deck collapse or did they just notice it and infer that it had just collapsed? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/585 "2021-07-15T23:35:40Z")
per the link above she said she was in the lobby when she heard a metallic boom and then saw the cars upended. She then went back to her condo (111) and ran down the street with the kids. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/587 "2021-07-16T07:40:05Z")
The search is almost over > [@](#): > > Three weeks after rescue crews began searching for victims, officials said they were nearing the end of their search for those trapped in the ruins of the Champlain Towers South condo building, a somber bookend to one of the deadliest such collapses in U.S. history. > > In total, 97 people have been confirmed dead . . . A Miami-Dade police spokesman said that as of Thursday, 97 missing reports had been confirmed, a number equal to the dead. > > Nonetheless, authorities stopped short of saying all victims had been located. Ninety-two people have been identified as of Thursday evening, and there remains the possibility that one or more victims were never officially reported missing. Police spokesman Alvaro Zabaleta said the search for any other possible victims would continue until crews have reached the bottom of the debris pile. > […] > Though officials initially feared that more than 150 people could be trapped beneath the rubble, that number declined as detectives found some people safe and realized other names had been reported twice, sometimes in both Hebrew and English. > […] > The building did not have a record of everyone inside at the time of the collapse, making it difficult to know how many might have been trapped. The number unaccounted for steadily declined as detectives conducted a detailed probe. Some were found safe with other relatives also thought to be missing. Multiple family members in some instances reported the same person disappeared, with variations on names. .[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/15/surfside-condo-collapse-victims-recovered/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/15/surfside-condo-collapse-victims-recovered/) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/588 "2021-07-16T15:02:19Z")
Thanks for posting that. There was a discrepancy in the numbers throughout the reporting and this puts to rest the thought of anyone unaccounted for. I thought I saw a picture of an empty basement on the news but I can’t find any images when I search. I was hoping to see an update on what happened to the columns. ---
**Author:** ![wizzito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wizzito/32/8487_2.png) [@wizzito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wizzito)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/589 "2021-07-17T00:40:42Z")
> **[Champlain Towers South Site Approved for Estimated $100M Sale](https://commercialobserver.com/2021/07/champlain-towers-south-site-approved-for-sale-for-over-100m/)** > > A judge approved a potential sale of the ground beneath the fallen Champlain Towers South, which could be valued at more than $100 million. A judge recently approved the sale of the land where the tower was. The proceeds will go to the families affected by the collapse. I hope they build a memorial park; but I did see a report that said that it was sold to a developer; so maybe just some housing will be built ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/590 "2021-07-17T01:47:04Z")
> [@wizzito](#): > > but I did see a report that said that it was sold to a developer That’s … amazing. 3 years for the owners association to work out fixing the building, but less than a month to sell it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/591 "2021-07-17T06:37:23Z")
the Federal Government paid to haul off the old building. It’s a clean slate. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/592 "2021-07-17T10:03:36Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > That’s … amazing. 3 years for the owners association to work out fixing the building, but less than a month to sell it. That actually makes sense. It’s always so much easier to avoid the problem than to solve it. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/593 "2021-07-17T14:38:04Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Regarding the inspection, one thing that’s been suggested is that the rebar in the swimming pool and parking decks weren’t as specified in the construction drawings. Is that something that should have been picked up on inspection? I wouldn’t be able to answer that question. But one thing I’ve noticed in accounts of such disasters–a recurring theme is that the architect specifies a certain grade of steel, or a certain thickness of support beam, or something along those lines; but the builder decides to substitute something that’s cheaper. Thus the building is flawed from the very beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/594 "2021-07-17T16:05:09Z")
[Here is another Building Integrity video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg7xofW6fnI) showing why they may have had so much trouble keeping water out of the basement. He describes how the change in water table level and create voids under the garage floor. he also talks about how irregular sink rates among the pilings can put stress on the building. And the thing I found most interesting is a term he used to describe some of the rebar used. He called it punch-through rebar. [Here’s a video describing that kind of rebar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kDI6lRDcuo) and how it’s used to replace down stamping, column capitals or drop down panels. You don’t see any of these used under the pool deck. And to the untrained eye it just looks like regular rebar on the columns that remain standing. I think I mentioned this early on but there doesn’t seem to be anything spreading the load onto the column. It just looks like the only thing holding it up is a small area of concrete adhesion between the deck and column with a little bit of rebar. When that bond breaks it punches through pulling the rebar out. The deck drops down largely intact. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/596 "2021-07-17T17:23:45Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > > [@wizzito](#): > > > > but I did see a report that said that it was sold to a developer > > That’s … amazing. 3 years for the owners association to work out fixing the building, but less than a month to sell it. The options are sell the land or rebuild. Very doubtful that anyone who lived there (or their heirs) would want to rebuild. Certainly the majority would want to liquidate the condominium’s assets, distribute them, and terminate the condominium. They (or their estates) still have mortgages to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/597 "2021-07-17T17:33:45Z")
My guess is that the new building is going to be a lot fancier with much more expensive condos. I think the condos there were selling for $500,000 to about a million or so. Meanwhile, just over the border in Miami Beach is [Eighty Seven Park](https://eightysevenpark.com/), a much more expensive condo designed by starchitect [Renzo Piano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renzo_Piano). Even with the insurance money, the residents of this building aren’t going to be able to afford the replacement apartments. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/598 "2021-07-17T22:41:34Z")
To be clear, I doubt that the owners or even the owners association were asked about the sale: that’s why it had to be approved by a judge. It was railroaded through – by the insurance company, by the government at some level, or by the developer. Probably by all three, and not necessarily that the three parties were actually independent. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/599 "2021-07-17T22:47:11Z")
I was told last night that 911 has released audio, and had 24 calls from inside the building before it collapsed. I doubt that’s true – surely it’s 24 calls from outside the building? But apparently it took a while to start to collapse (see post 455). ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/600 "2021-07-17T23:07:26Z")
I wonder whether some of the people who called from inside were unable to run out – either due to their physical condition (or to the condition of someone who they couldn’t move and didn’t want to leave) or because they started to leave and found the stairs or the way to them already impassable. I suppose some might also not have realized the noise and shaking were due to the building starting to fall, but might have thought there’d been an explosion somewhere near by; depending on the possible causes of such an explosion, staying put might have been safer than running out into an unknown situation. They might have called 911 partly in the hope of finding out whether to run and if so in which direction. Do the calls show what 911 told them? I don’t suppose the 911 people knew at first what was happening, either. ---
**Author:** ![wizzito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wizzito/32/8487_2.png) [@wizzito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wizzito)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/601 "2021-07-18T00:21:43Z")
An executive for Live Nation is one of the identified victims. She was visiting her parents. > **[Live Nation Executive Theresa Velasquez Identified as Victim of Surfside...](https://variety.com/2021/music/news/live-nation-executive-surfside-condo-collapse-theresa-velasquez-1235022244/)** > > An executive for global entertainment company Live Nation has been identified as one of the victims in the June 24 Surfside condo collapse in Florida. Theresa Velasquez, 36, was listed as a victim … Hackers are stealing the identities of the dead. 🤦‍♂️ > **[Hacker steals identities of multiple victims killed in Surfside condo collapse](https://6abc.com/florida-condo-collapse-update-hacker-surfside-victims-building/10894076/)** > > Officials said the criminal is seeing the victims' names in the news and then stealing their identities. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/602 "2021-07-18T03:02:32Z")
> [@wizzito](#): > > [Champlain Towers South Site Approved for Estimated $100M Sale – Commercial Observer](https://commercialobserver.com/2021/07/champlain-towers-south-site-approved-for-sale-for-over-100m/) > > A judge recently approved the sale of the land where the tower was. The proceeds will go to the families affected by the collapse. > > I hope they build a memorial park; but I did see a report that said that it was sold to a developer; so maybe just some housing will be built Nitpick; what that and other articles I found say is that a judge ruled that the land _should_ be sold. I’ve found nothing that says it _has_ been sold. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2021, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/603 "2021-07-18T08:30:56Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I was told last night that 911 has released audio, and had 24 calls from inside the building before it collapsed. I doubt that’s true – surely it’s 24 calls from outside the building? You’re hoping some of those calls were from outside, right? It might have been that many from inside. I haven’t heard the audio from all of them, but some of them were definitely from inside. I remember one in particular where the 911 operator asked the lady if she could get out of her apartment and the caller said no, the hallway and stairs were gone. I hope she was one of the people taken off balconies by the fire department that night. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do the calls show what 911 told them? I don’t suppose the 911 people knew at first what was happening, either. I’m positive that 911 didn’t know what was going on, because the first responders didn’t realize they were dealing with a building collapse until they actually arrived. One of them said they had been told there was a problem with a stairway (hmm… wonder if that’s connected to the call I mentioned) only to find out that yes, there was a problem with a stairway and 2/3 of the building being gone. > [@Melbourne](#): > > To be clear, I doubt that the owners or even the owners association were asked about the sale: that’s why it had to be approved by a judge. It was railroaded through – by the insurance company, by the government at some level, or by the developer. Probably by all three, and not necessarily that the three parties were actually independent. There may also be the problem that quite a few residents and people on the condo board died that night. There might be legal issues with even being able to assemble a quorum to vote on issues like sales which required the intervention of a judge. Otherwise it could be years sorting out the legal issues in approving anything to do with the property. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931.md?page=31)