# Champlain Towers South in Miami has caved in {2021-06-24} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 24, 2021, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931 "2021-06-24T09:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/162 "2021-06-27T23:14:15Z")
There was an early report that the whole building was slowly sinking into the ground. The footings are supposed to support the foundations, and the foundations support the building. If part of the footings sinks away, the foundations are supposed to be strong enough to hold together. If the foundations fail, the footings are supposed to be strong enough to support the building. If the foundations were failing at the same time as the footings … ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/163 "2021-06-27T23:14:33Z")
> [@chela](#): > > To me the towers N. S. & E. are a throuple, two go down and one remains and the reasoning that I’ve read is CT N is " a block" away" from the collapse. No it’s not a block away it’s up against your backside right next door. I have to walk that back. They are physically 1 block apart. 88 th and 89th st. With 2 other buildings in between. Still water problems id bet $ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/164 "2021-06-27T23:36:01Z")
A couple big questions: First, was it water damage from improperly sloped (that is, NOT sloped) waterproofing that led to damage that caused the building to fail. It is, of course, too soon answer that question. Second, IF that is the ultimate cause of that… what about that same “waterproofing” membrane at the other buildings of similar design? Was it properly installed with a slope to allow drainage? Or not? Because that might make a big difference in regards to the safety of those other buildings. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/165 "2021-06-27T23:43:17Z")
I suspect that yes, the damage indicated in the 2018 report was a strong supporting factor, if not the cause of the collapse. We don’t have all the details yet of course, so not going to speculate past that. And yeah, there is a small but measurable amount of slack that should be cut to the owner’s association. I’m sure getting the $15 mil and scheduling the repairs took the majority of the pre-collapse time frame especially considering COVID. But the article I just read, -_if_- correct would suggest a certain Ross Prieto (and likely the town of Surfside due to his statement) will probably be named in roughly _all_ the lawsuits. > **[Surfside Official Told Residents Their Building Was Safe, Despite Engineer's...](https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/27/1010710735/surfside-official-told-residents-their-building-was-safe-despite-engineers-warni)** > > An engineering report in Oct. 2018 warned of "major structural damage" in the Florida building that collapsed last week. The next month, a town inspector said the building was in "very good shape." > The engineering [report](https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/town-clerk-documents/champlain-towers-south-public-records/8777-collins-ave---structural-field-survey-report.pdf?sfvrsn=882a1194_2) was dated Oct. 8, 2018. At a Nov. 15 board meeting of the Champlain Tower South Condominium Association, a building official from the town of Surfside, Ross Prieto, appeared to discuss that report. “Structural engineer report was reviewed by Mr. Prieto,” the meeting minutes say. “It appears the building is in very good shape.” > > According to town officials, Prieto is no longer employed by Surfside. NPR attempted repeatedly to reach him, but those efforts were unsuccessful. I do remind myself over and over that this was from 2.5 years ago. So yeah, the issues were arguably not eminent, but for this Ross Prieto to say that the building is in ‘very good shape’ is beyond stretching a point. ETA - the hyperlink to the report in the quoted text is the one we’ve all seen, the article is about how Mr. RP seems to have reviewed it and possibly (probably?) grossly mischaracterized it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/166 "2021-06-27T23:53:03Z")
My concern is that there might be a rush to find a scapegoat (and Mr. Prieto is, unfortunately, one of the candidates for that) and less attention paid to what happened and how it lead to this disaster so that, hopefully, we can prevent this happening again to another building. To my mind THAT is the most important long term goal: understanding and prevention. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/167 "2021-06-28T00:18:14Z")
Ninja’d! @JRDelirious RN I’m looking at realtor solds, CT North listing boasts Low maintenance costs! 😳. The new building S of the collapse, $2 mil+ Balcony views forever. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/168 "2021-06-28T01:12:25Z")
Why is the pool empty? Did S&R drain it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/169 "2021-06-28T02:21:54Z")
That’s a good question. I assume it cracked when the surrounding structure collapsed. If it was drained this time of year then it would have been down for repairs. The spa tub next to it is also drained. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/170 "2021-06-28T03:24:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > My concern is that there might be a rush to find a scapegoat (and Mr. Prieto is, unfortunately, one of the candidates for that) and less attention paid to what happened and how it lead to this disaster so that, hopefully, we can prevent this happening again to another building. To my mind THAT is the most important long term goal: understanding and prevention. You are an optimist! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/171 "2021-06-28T03:45:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s a good question. I assume it cracked when the surrounding structure collapsed. If it was drained this time of year then it would have been down for repairs. The [pictures from early Thursday morning](https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/w_1600/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F210624095206-10-florida-building-collapse-210624.jpg) (immediate aftermath) show water in the pool. A picture [from later in the day](https://ep00.epimg.net/elpais/imagenes/2021/06/24/album/1624546906_512414_1624577543_album_normal.jpg) would seem to show the water level going down. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/172 "2021-06-28T04:01:59Z")
I think they may have used the pool water to fight the fire. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/173 "2021-06-28T08:41:41Z")
Or the pool got damaged during the crash down and the water drained out to the lower level. Which would explain some of the thigh-deep water the folks in the underground parking structure were walking through. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/174 "2021-06-28T13:54:16Z")
Do you think they’ll recover all the bodies? I vaguely recall buildings that collapsed in earthquakes being designated as grave memorials. It was considered too dangerous to dig into the site. I remember authorities spent years dismantling the NY towers and sifting rubble. Would they do that for a natural disaster? I rather a relative’s remains be left undisturbed than have construction equipment digging out the rubble. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/175 "2021-06-28T14:02:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I rather a relative be left undisturbed than have construction equipment digging out the rubble. 🤦‍♀️ They are not going to leave a giant pile of rubble and destruction in the middle of a neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/176 "2021-06-28T14:06:02Z")
Or leave a plot of beachfront property undeveloped. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/177 "2021-06-28T14:07:18Z")
I’ve no doubt some developers see a new construction opportunity at 8777 Collins. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/178 "2021-06-28T14:10:41Z")
IIRC it took at least 8 years to clear the NY towers. (they were sifting all the rubble for plane parts and remains). Then several more years arguing over the design of a building and memorial. But they did eventually reopen. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/179 "2021-06-28T14:38:05Z")
Regarding the lack of drainage slope on the deteriorating floor - is there any chance that subsidence changed that? Drainage slopes are usually about 2%, at least on sidewalks. That’s not big enough to notice casually. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/180 "2021-06-28T15:07:27Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I rather a relative’s remains be left undisturbed than have construction equipment digging out the rubble. Not me. I would want the remains to be recovered for burial or cremation. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931/181 "2021-06-28T15:18:01Z")
> **[Family reports receiving 16 calls from missing grandparents' landline in...](https://abc7.com/landline-phone-calls-florida-condo-collapse-miami-building-update-arnie-norkin/10836763/)** > > Static and cracking noises could be heard from the landline, with no discernable human voices. Not in the link but the family have said that they hope it’s not somebody playing a sick joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/champlain-towers-south-in-miami-has-caved-in-2021-06-24/944931.md?page=10)