# Change in conservative fears about higher education? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578 "2021-01-03T15:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/122 "2021-01-15T17:28:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of why people become liberal. I am not a liberal who is happy the facts agree with me. I became a liberal because I realized that I could not come up with substantive fact-based arguments to support my conservative positions, and so (after much angst) I abandoned those positions. This process happened to occur during and shortly after my time at college, mostly because I was surrounded by people who felt no obligation to coddle my fact free conservative bias. Most people don’t become liberal. Stereotypically, young people are more liberal and they become more conservative as they age. Perhaps it’s less tempting to try to change the world when you have more invested in the current one. US politics, of course, is somewhat ‘special’, so this may not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/123 "2021-01-15T17:43:54Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > To a large extent, liberals are not really on the side of facts, facts just happen to be on the side of liberals. Hmm, although there certainly are many liberals who can be dogmatically anti-factual, I don’t think this phenomenon “facts just happen to be on the side of liberals” is as much of a coincidence as you make out. In general, in a modern society with active scientific research cultures and rapid technological development, our understanding of the world around us is going to be changing and adapting more swiftly than was the case in most pre-modern societies. The “liberal” mindset that identifies with concepts like progress, openness, change, improvement, and so forth will be more sympathetic to this rapid evolution of facts than the “conservative” mindset identifying with stability, caution, tradition, sustainability and so forth. It’s not so much that “facts have a liberal bias” as that liberals on average tend to be more disposed to adapting to what the facts are, and less bothered about facts contradicting authority and tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/124 "2021-01-15T17:48:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Most people don’t become liberal. Stereotypically, young people are more liberal and they become more conservative as they age. [Apparently not as true as the stereotype assumes](https://www.livescience.com/2360-busting-myth-people-turn-liberal-age.html): > [@](#): > > The stereotype of a cranky old man, set in his ways, getting more conservative by the day, is an enduring one. But new research has debunked the myth that people become more conservative as they age. > > By comparing surveys of various age groups taken over a span of more than 30 years, sociologists found that in general, Americans’ opinions veer toward the liberal as they grow older. […] > > The surveys assessed [attitudes](https://www.livescience.com/3974-happiness-age-depends-attitude.html) on politics, economics, race, gender, religion and sexuality issues. In some cases, such as racial issues and questions of civil liberties for communists, the researchers measured a greater change toward liberalism in older people than in younger people. This may be an instance of the “American exceptionalism” that you noted, but the researchers seem to think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/125 "2021-01-15T17:55:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not so much that “facts have a liberal bias” as that liberals on average tend to be more disposed to adapting to what the facts are, and less bothered about facts contradicting authority and tradition. I think of it more as, “human organizations naturally have a (small c) conservative bias”. Anyone with above average power or control over an organization benefits from the conditions under which they arrived at that power and control not changing, lest they be displaced by someone else who is better suited to gaining power or control under the new conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/126 "2021-01-15T17:55:53Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > You are one person. There examples of fact denial by liberals. GMOs were mentioned. I don’t know that GMO distrust is a uniquely liberal position; I’ve met lots of conservatives who distrust GMOs because they think it’s playing God or some BS like that. But the liberals who do mistrust GMOs don’t have trust in science in general - they’re also the ones who buy into BS like “healing crystals” or “alternative medicine” (there’s the old joke - what do you call alternative medicine that’s proven to work? Medicine!). > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Once again, you are one person. How would you explain the rise in liberal faith in science at the same time there was a drop in conservative faith in science? On the other hand, this is a fair point. I know the kinds of people you are talking about; you are right, they don’t arrive at their liberal ideology by thinking things through. They may even say that they trust science because that’s the liberal thing to do. In practice, though, they certainly don’t trust science when it says that western medicine is backed by research while their magnets and crystals and homeopathic remedies are full of shit. They gush about ghosts and UFOs and reincarnation. Science may tell them that mushrooms are not addictive and not likely to cause permanent harm, but it certainly doesn’t tell them that the spiritual experiences they rave about mean anything. These are the people I had in mind in another thread when I said that believing the right thing for the wrong reason can be just as bad as believing the wrong thing. But you are right, they fall under the “liberal” umbrella too. They didn’t get there through reason, and it is important that if we want facts to continue to have a liberal bias that we do not let them hijack our movements. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/127 "2021-01-15T17:59:32Z")
I think you raise a good point that I hadn’t realized, in that the straight laced bookworm archetype is now more likely to be liberal than conservative. Although I would say that the emergence of characters like Rambo and Mad Max as more a a symptom than a cause. I think it really has to do with the fact that cultural attitudes have been changing and leaving conservatives in the dust. So that while previously they could comfortably exist right smack dab in the middle of the status quo, they now find that their attitudes are no longer mainstream. So they become fighters against the system instead of preservers of the system. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/128 "2021-01-15T18:08:00Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So that while previously they could comfortably exist right smack dab in the middle of the status quo, they now find that their attitudes are no longer mainstream. Which is another way of saying liberal attitudes have become mainstream and been adopted by the establishment. Although really it’s more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/129 "2021-01-15T18:10:47Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > That’s interesting. I never really thought of that movie as being that kind of watershed but maybe… > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Although I would say that the emergence of characters like Rambo and Mad Max as more a a symptom than a cause. Clarifying: Sorry, I didn’t mean to suggest that fictional characterizations in Rambo and Mad Max and their ilk actually caused the shift in conservative mindset from “establishment traditionalist” to “badass rebel”. I was just thinking of those figures as “avatars” of the transition, as it were. The causes themselves, as you note, were much more diverse and deep-rooted. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/130 "2021-01-15T18:11:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > On the other hand, this is a fair point. I know the kinds of people you are talking about; you are right, they don’t arrive at their liberal ideology by thinking things through. The crystal woo types aren’t the only ones who arrive at their ideology without thinking it through. I’d say it’s true of the majority of people I’ve encountered, of every political stripe. They base their beliefs on what people around them think and where their own sympathies naturally lie. It’s hard to change your mind even in the face of strong evidence, as you attest. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/131 "2021-01-15T18:40:07Z")
Sure, but there’s a definite correlation between higher education and how closely aligned your beliefs are with reality. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/132 "2021-01-15T18:51:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t know that GMO distrust is a uniquely liberal position; I’ve met lots of conservatives who distrust GMOs because they think it’s playing God or some BS like that. And I’ve met conservatives that think that global warming is the single most important issue facing mankind. I think we are talking in generalities. This is not me saying “both sides do it” this is me saying that this is part of the human condition. There is a category of liberals that would be conservative with equal vigor if they had been raised in a different environment. They are liberals for the same reason so many italians are catholics. Same with conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/133 "2021-01-15T19:03:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > don’t know that GMO distrust is a uniquely liberal position; I’ve met lots of conservatives who distrust GMOs because they think it’s playing God or some BS like that. Since I was the one who brought it up, there was no intent to say that anti-GMOs are solely liberal. It was simply an example of where liberals can also exhibit anti-intellectualism. As damuriajashi said, there is a lot of diversity within groups. There are not monololithic in thought and belief. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/134 "2021-01-15T19:33:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sure, but there’s a definite correlation between higher education and how closely aligned your beliefs are with reality. I wonder if there are any studies on that? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/135 "2021-01-15T20:26:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > Most people don’t become liberal. Stereotypically, young people are more liberal and they become more conservative as they age. > > [Apparently not as true as the stereotype assumes](https://www.livescience.com/2360-busting-myth-people-turn-liberal-age.html): > > > [@](#): > > > > The stereotype of a cranky old man, set in his ways, getting more conservative by the day, is an enduring one. But new research has debunked the myth that people become more conservative as they age. > > > > > By comparing surveys of various age groups taken over a span of more than 30 years, sociologists found that in general, Americans’ opinions veer toward the liberal as they grow older. […] > > > > > > The surveys assessed [attitudes](https://www.livescience.com/3974-happiness-age-depends-attitude.html) on politics, economics, race, gender, religion and sexuality issues. In some cases, such as racial issues and questions of civil liberties for communists, the researchers measured a greater change toward liberalism in older people than in younger people. > > This may be an instance of the “American exceptionalism” that you noted, but the researchers seem to think otherwise. Thanks for this. Every time I see that “observation,” I cringe a little. With almost 60 years of data gathering to support its findings, Pew has clearly debunked the theory that individuals generally grow more conservative as they age. What has fed this misconception is that older voters are _relatively_ more conservative than younger ones but those same older voters are also _relatively_ more liberal than two generations before them. My grandparents were born before 1900; to a millennial voter they might as well have been from a different planet in their political and cultural views. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/136 "2021-01-15T20:48:19Z")
Speaking only for myself, I have 100% become more liberal as I’ve aged. I think this is in part, I’ve moved a bit to the left, and also the right has moved away from me (giving an apparent shift to the left). ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/137 "2021-01-15T21:00:43Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Thanks for this. Every time I see that “observation,” I cringe a little. With almost 60 years of data gathering to support its findings, Pew has clearly debunked the theory that individuals generally grow more conservative as they age. What has fed this misconception is that older voters are _relatively_ more conservative than younger ones but those same older voters are also _relatively_ more liberal than two generations before them. How is it then, that at my university supporters of the Conservative party were about as numerous as supporters of the Socialist Worker’s party? I guarantee that is _not_ the case among those same people today. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/138 "2021-01-15T21:14:12Z")
I’m not really interested in addressing an anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/139 "2021-01-15T21:15:45Z")
How on earth would that be evidence that individual voters become more conservative as they age? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/140 "2021-01-15T21:27:32Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Speaking only for myself, I have 100% become more liberal as I’ve aged. Same. Over 30 years I’ve got from “conventional big-city college liberal” to “raging Marxist.” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578/141 "2021-01-15T21:39:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How on earth would that be evidence that individual voters become more conservative as they age? How else do you explain why those university radicals become non-radical young professionals? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-conservative-fears-about-higher-education/929578.md?page=8)