# Change in species **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2026, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282 "2026-08-10T21:16:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/262 "2026-08-18T12:12:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > We can all agree that cladking’s communication style could use a little refinement I hope? I think even cladking agreed with that sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/263 "2026-08-18T12:14:01Z")
> [@brendanman](#): > > He wrote the following in chapter Recapitulation and Conclusion: > > _“As natural selection acts solely by accumulating slight, successive, favourable variations, it can produce no great or sudden modification; it can act only by very short and slow steps”.(\*England English)_ You’re right. There are no favorable changes but merely behavior that leads to reproduction and behavior that fails. Since life leads to reproduction we need focus primarily on engaging in behavior that survives. Darwin wanted to simplify reality into how he imagined human society grew and prospered but human concerns are primarily driven by cognition, not fitness, the great chain of being, or behavior. In all things _homo circularis rationatio_ is the podd man out. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/264 "2026-08-18T12:19:59Z")
> [@brendanman](#): > > Reality is that environment is what causes changes in species. Indeed. But not like Darwin imagined because there is no gradual change in species. Every individual is unique with unique consciousness and nature sorts through behavior. Real change in species is largely through mutation but also by bottlenecks that destroy individuals who exhibit typical behavior. When “typical” no longer works the oddballs survive and breed a new species. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/265 "2026-08-18T12:28:47Z")
But science has yielded an unbelievably positive impact on humanity. We benefit daily from advances in medicine and bioengineering that wouldn’t have been possible without hundreds of years of science, and our understanding of differentiation of species due to natural selection is a core component of that. What’s your beef, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/266 "2026-08-18T12:29:48Z")
How did giraffes get long necks? ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/267 "2026-08-18T12:33:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But don’t you think that without symbolic equations or the concept of categorization itself that highly abstract thinking becomes impossible? How would one even attempt to communicate general relativity or quantum mechanics without, however imperfectly devised or adopted, symbolic language and some conceptual recursion? I think we should judge the effectiveness of language and communication by what it can produce. I believe our species is at another threshold. The first was 80,000 years ago when complex language was invented and created _homo sapiens_ through a mutation in the arcuate fasciculus. The second was when this complex language began to fail in 3200 BC creating _homo circularis rationatio_ and abstract language. Abstract language has created a world where it is no longer mandatory because AI can manipulate it. The two species will live side by side this time. It’s going to be several years before a new science that runs experiment simultaneously with logic and can be performed by computers arises. By that time the world will be awash in wealth created by new efficiencies and technological advancements in disparate areas like fusion reaction, materials science, and superconductivity. As things evolve (reality changes) so too will human beings but in the long run this change will be seen as quite sudden spanning a few generations not epochs and eras. ---
**Author:** ![brendanman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ebca7d/32.png) [@brendanman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brendanman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/268 "2026-08-18T12:35:21Z")
Not really, Take away the so called “natural selection” and the advances in medicine and bio engineering would reach same levels as today. Theories are just attempts to explain a process, not a rule from which processes happen. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/269 "2026-08-18T12:36:41Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > What’s your beef, exactly? Science isn’t obsolete because it’s wrong and it’s not wrong because of experiment. It’s obsolete because it’s incomplete and lacking a tie to reality. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/270 "2026-08-18T12:40:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the deliberate stupidity on your part staggers the mind. “Right off the bat it tells us…” What the flying fuck are you referring to by “it”? “It” is reality. It is procedural logic that applies across all domains and represented by the UFT. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/271 "2026-08-18T12:45:16Z")
> [@brendanman](#): > > Not really, Take away the so called “natural selection” and the advances in medicine and bio engineering would reach same levels as today. Theories are just attempts to explain a process, not a rule from which processes happen. Bad theories can sometimes work. If you install windows because bad air gets in from the swamps (malaria) you breath less bad air and have less chance of catching malaria. Don’t forget our species is the one that reasons in circles so we had to invent experiment to lift ourselves from superstition and ignorance and experiment ties science to reality. Of course modern theory works at least sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![brendanman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ebca7d/32.png) [@brendanman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brendanman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/272 "2026-08-18T12:46:20Z")
Species mutate in different ways. Let’s say the horse. The former species used to have five digits in the four extremities, today’s species have a hoof with atrophied digits. The current species is of a bigger size including the pony in comparison with the ancient one, but the former species had more molar teeth and aligned denture, today’s species has deformed denture alignment. No one can fully explain the mutations in each species because what is known about their environment is not fully understood, we have ideas obtained from residuals of the former species and things around them, but there is no accuracy but just samples usually mixed with samples from other eras. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/273 "2026-08-18T12:49:42Z")
So, do we have two nonsense spewing nutbags now, or cladking and his sock? ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/274 "2026-08-18T12:50:06Z")
> [@brendanman](#): > > The current species is of a bigger size including the pony in comparison with the ancient one, but the former species had more molar teeth and aligned denture, today’s species has deformed denture alignment. Whatever behavior allowed the ancestors of our horse to survive a bottleneck was associated with poorly aligned teeth. It could be direct like a different diet or it could be simply coincidental. Change in species is many many orders of magnitude more complex than Darwin or we imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/275 "2026-08-18T12:56:45Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So, do we have two nonsense spewing nutbags now, or cladking and his sock? That or a self-important delusional idiot and an ‘intelligent’ designer. Either way, even a neutron star can’t compete with density of that magnitude ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/276 "2026-08-18T13:01:46Z")
This is an incorrect take. Understanding that species diverged due to natural selection led scientists to look for a mechanism – they found it in genes. Knowing that there were genes led them to look for where they might be hiding – they found the genes in DNA. Knowing that DNA contained coded genetic information led scientists to learn how genetic information was coded. You don’t get lifesaving mRNA vaccines without first understanding natural selection. You don’t get CRISPR gene therapies without Darwin. You can argue that different timelines may exist in the multiverse where it’s not Darwin but someone else, it’s not “On the Origin of Species” but some other work, that certain discoveries could have been made in a slightly different order. But it’s all connected. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/277 "2026-08-18T13:02:14Z")
The tie to reality is obvious, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/278 "2026-08-18T13:02:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Am I understanding you that you are using “Waggle Dance” as a referral to the language of bees as an analogy to early hominid communication pre-oral language? That “procedural language” you mean something like a means of communication by activity, such as facial expressions and gestures? All language in complex organisms is probably composed of much more than vocalization. If (when) we study the sounds made by bees we’ll probably find they even buzz differently and hum at the same frequency. There’s a lot more going on in a Waggle Dance than what we can understand. Ancient Language was primarily vocal but it was also ritualistic and performative. You couldn’t just say “Let’s start work and stay safe” you had to perform a ritual that tied each worker to the same page, the same thought. In every day speech this would surely involve gestures and various other behavior. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/279 "2026-08-18T13:04:09Z")
WRONG! The correct answer is that there is no such thing as a “horse” or a “giraffe,” there are only individuals. Categorizing things into groups like “horse” and “non-horse,” or “giraffe” and “non-giraffe” is a grave mistake that renders all proceeding logic moot because it limits our ability to comprehend these topics. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/280 "2026-08-18T13:11:49Z")
Indeed! When I said “horse” I was referring to the progenitors of everything we call a “horse” today and (no doubt) some things we do not. If you go back enough generations we all have the same grandparents. There’s too much knowledge for humans to communicate procedurally (I believe). The best we can do is approximate it. Don’t forget “a horse is a horse, of course, of course” (even if they don’t talk). ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2026, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/281 "2026-08-18T13:13:33Z")
That’s interesting because _you_ didn’t say “horse,” **brendanman** did. Did you forget to change accounts or is this another metaphysical conundrum? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282.md?page=15)