# Change in species **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2026, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282 "2026-08-10T21:16:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/141 "2026-08-16T11:47:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > (Checks forum) So what you’re saying is you never convince anyone with facts, you just bore, annoy, or wear them out. And you call that “winning”? No I’m saying no one ever convinces anyone of anything. We each reason from our own premises. _Homo circularis rationatio_. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/142 "2026-08-16T11:51:16Z")
I’m actually somewhat proud of having helped two conservative Christians realize that abortion can sometimes be the lesser evil, and a bit sad that i broke down the faith of a Catholic co-worker who didn’t have a lot else by easy of emotional support at the time. So… Naw, people convince other people of things all the time. It usually happens slowly, but it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/143 "2026-08-16T11:55:14Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > No I’m saying no one ever convinces anyone of anything. We each reason from our own premises. _Homo circularis rationatio_. Then why talk to us? You won’t convince us, we won’t convince you, this whole conversation is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/144 "2026-08-16T11:59:12Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > No I’m saying no one ever convinces anyone of anything. We each reason from our own premises. _Homo circularis rationatio_. Intelligence is the capacity to learn, absorb new information, and form new perspectives on one’s view of the world, while morons never learn. I wonder if there’s a clever Latin phrase for that concept? Maybe _idiotae numquam discere_? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/145 "2026-08-16T12:16:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You won’t convince us, we won’t convince you, this whole conversation is pointless. This was obvious, even in the other thread. But, that fish post from DF was pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/146 "2026-08-16T12:27:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You won’t convince us, we won’t convince you, this whole conversation is pointless. I agree that the conversation with the King of Clad is pointless, but let’s not set up a false equivalency here. Only one side of the “argument”, such as it is, adheres immovably to prior beliefs and ignores all evidence, while the rest of us are willing to engage in informed conversation. A simple way of stating this is that His Majesty is insane, which was already well established in the Egyptian pyramid and “physics is all wrong” threads. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/147 "2026-08-16T12:34:36Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I agree that the conversation with the King of Clad is pointless, but let’s not set up a false equivalency here. Only one side of the “argument”, such as it is, adheres immovably to prior beliefs and ignores all evidence, while the rest of us are willing to engage in informed conversation. Sorry: I should have started the sentence with “By your logic…” ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/148 "2026-08-16T13:17:04Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > “AL” is pretty bright, but sometimes has his head up his ass. Oh, A I. That’s why we need _serifs_, dammit! > > Data is data. Evidence is in interpretation. Yes, biology has a lot of maps. That’s the thing with nature - it doesn’t want to fit into neat boxes. But it’s humans tend to like neat boxes to organize our “stuff”. Ideas are “stuff”. > > “Species” is a nice human box that nature tends to ignore. > > Concepts like “ring species” test the notion of interbreeding. Fertile hybrids like coyote-wolves and polar-grizzlies strain it the other way. It’s not only life that doesn’t fit our neat little categories but reality itself. Reality is binary not analog. Forces of nature are constraints not categories. Man once thought just like every other species but language became too complex so the broccas area and arcuate fasciculus made it possible to think in a new way. Instead of seeing reality procedurally like a fish or AI we see it categorically in invented categories that don’t map to reality,. Every experiment says we see what we expect and already believe then we label what we see “evidence”. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/149 "2026-08-16T13:21:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Staggering self-blindness. You describe one element of Evolution and then declare there is no “Evolution”. You don’t know the meaning of the words, or you’re a staggering idiot. And “or” is being generous. There is no such thing as Evolution or “species”. Darwin saw what he believed. We live in a ;logical reality with other life form that are a reflection of their DNA. There consciousness and models are reflections of their DNA. These other creatures change over time because all things change over time as determined by their “behavior”. Only life can change its behavior through intent. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/150 "2026-08-16T13:23:25Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > In this case it was probably a bit of natural selection leading to artificial selection and deliberate breeding. NO! Species change when a bottleneck selects unusual behavior. The invention of dogs was an artificial bottleneck caused by another species that was our ancestor species’ _homo sapiens_. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/151 "2026-08-16T13:26:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So your idea is to rediscover all science from scratch, reproducing all the errors and missteps that anyone ever made along the way. No. I used experiment (not science), logic, and ancient science (procedural logic) to discover the framework of a new science operated by machines and experiment and interpreted by humans. This is really just systems science on steroids. It’s four dimensional systems science. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/152 "2026-08-16T13:29:32Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Defining evidence as data that fits existing belief is the hallmark of pseudoscience. Science tries to search out data that _doesn’t_ conform in order to test where theories are flawed. No. Modern science is supposed to be experimentally based and this science (real science) is categorical recursion ands this is why there is no UFT and our “evolution” doesn’t even include intent that defines every individual and life itself. There is none so blind… ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/153 "2026-08-16T13:34:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He might have a track record of winning arguments, but only by defining “winning” as “irritating other people until they go away.” It’s not a definition I find useful. NO!!! I thought I made myself clear. No one ever wins an argument because no one can change his premises. I’m tellinmg you that it is ap[parent based on my ability to make prediction that everything you know is wrong. More accurately you need to tweak a few premises because they have misled you. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/154 "2026-08-16T13:37:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Then why talk to us? You won’t convince us, we won’t convince you, this whole conversation is pointless. Some people have keen insights and this interests me far more than whether I’m right or wrong. Many people, especially the most religious, can do nothing but parrot back doctrine., ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/155 "2026-08-16T13:53:34Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > It’s not only life that doesn’t fit our neat little categories but reality itself. Reality is binary not analog. There’s a neat little category for you! And you didn’t even notice it, following right on the heels of your statement against them. Or else, of course, you’re deliberately producing word salad. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/156 "2026-08-16T15:35:38Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > NO!!! I thought I made myself clear. No one ever wins an argument because no one can change his premises. The fact that you can’t change your premises says nothing about anyone else. I have been persuaded by others, and I have persuaded others, because most people are not as rigid in their thinking as you are. Your projection of your own limitations onto other people is perhaps your greatest failing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/157 "2026-08-16T15:48:17Z")
I still say this is performance art. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/158 "2026-08-16T15:55:15Z")
Performance, maybe. Art, not so much ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/159 "2026-08-16T16:33:36Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > There is no such thing as Evolution or “species”. > [@cladking](#): > > Species change when a bottleneck selects unusual behavior. This isn’t very artful, honestly. No such thing as species, a couple of posts later, here’s something about species. **cladking** , you’re a fucking joke. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2026, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282/160 "2026-08-16T18:23:39Z")
> [@cladking](#): > > No. I used experiment (not science), logic, and ancient science (procedural logic) to discover the framework of a new science operated by machines and experiment and interpreted by humans. This is really just systems science on steroids. It’s four dimensional systems science.. He’s discovered a “new science” a “four dimensional science”… > [@cladking](#): > > NO!!! I thought I made myself clear. No one ever wins an argument because no one can change his premises. I’m tellinmg you that it is ap[parent based on my ability to make prediction that everything you know is wrong. > > More accurately you need to tweak a few premises because they have misled you. That allows him to predict that what everyone else knows is wrong because “everyone else is working from incorrect premises” but people are inherently incapable of changing their premises, (except for himself apparently), which is why “no one can change anyone else’s mind, and which is why he always wins arguments”. There’s a lot of “Main Character” syndrome going on here and a clear inability to follow a logical train of thought or to express thoughts in a way that doesn’t lead to confusion, self contradiction, and word salad. I’m finding it nearly impossible to follow any clear thinking here. And @cladking if you think brow beating people into agreement is how you “win arguments” this board is just going to disappoint you. Those tactics won’t work with this group. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/change-in-species/1032282.md?page=9)