# Changes in American English **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606 "2009-01-09T23:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/21 "2009-01-10T14:20:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Cot rhymes with hot, caught rhymes with ought. All four of those have the same vowel for me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/22 "2009-01-10T14:50:33Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > As for the Valley Girl thing? I noticed in most in a conversation with another language teacher? Annoying as hell? They do it on NPR and CNN. As Chaucer is, shall Dryden be. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/23 "2009-01-10T16:06:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Cot rhymes with hot, caught rhymes with ought. We’ve done this in many threads to no avail, even with sound samples. If you don’t distinguish the vowels naturally in your own speech, it’s very hard to learn to _hear_ the difference. To me (for whom “cot” and “caught” are different) it’s akin to perceiving these two smilies as being the same exact hue: :rolleyes: 😛 Sure, they’re both “green” … but there’s a subtle difference. ---
**Author:** ![OfficeGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@OfficeGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OfficeGirl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/24 "2009-01-10T16:07:11Z")
My recently hired employee is awesome, but she has the worst of the valley-girl talk. This is an actual quote from her yesterday: “When I was writing my, like, master’s thesis…” She inserts “like” into almost every sentence. I’ve noticed it more and more in my area, especially with girls ages 25 and under. People tend to think that I sound canadian. I think it’s because I strive to not sound like my family from the bootheel of Missouri. ---
**Author:** ![OfficeGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@OfficeGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OfficeGirl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/25 "2009-01-10T16:10:08Z")
Oh, and I do hear the difference between “cot” and “caught” and mary/merry/marry, and Don/Dawn, but for whatever reason I cannot speak those distinctions myself. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/26 "2009-01-10T16:45:23Z")
Beware of Doug writes: \> You mean the Great Lakes Vowel Shift, Shirley. Note that in the link it’s called the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. It affects the cities and their suburbs from Milwaukee to Buffalo. In other words, the area it affects is only slightly greater than the megapolis usually known as Chipitts or Chuffalo (Chicago to Pittsburgh or Chicago to Buffalo). It’s limited to just the cities and their suburbs there. For instance, I grew up in northwest Ohio just 55 miles south of Toledo, where people do use the shift, and I didn’t grow up speaking that way. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/27 "2009-01-10T18:13:23Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > cot = kaht > > caught = kawt And what’s the difference between “kaht” and “kawt” again? > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It’s clearly heard in my everyday speech. By you or a spectrograph? > [@bordelond](#): > > If you don’t distinguish the vowels naturally in your own speech, it’s very hard to learn to _hear_ the difference. Yes, I know. But there’s another problem: > [@OfficeGirl](#): > > Oh, and I do hear the difference between “cot” and “caught” and mary/merry/marry, and Don/Dawn, but for whatever reason I cannot speak those distinctions myself. Because we are having this discussion in print, where everyone sees the spellings, they can convince themselves that they speak or hear these words differently, or affect the pronunciation of another dialect. The best way to know about these things is to record people speaking in everyday circumstances who aren’t aware of what you’re really recording for. Self-reporting can be very unreliable. > [@bordelond](#): > > We’ve done this in many threads to no avail, even with sound samples. Yes, and it’s not something which happened in the last couple of years. In fact, I don’t know why the OP thinks English dialects would have changed in a couple of years, besides the lexicon. It’s a strange question. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/28 "2009-01-10T18:29:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Cot rhymes with hot, caught rhymes with ought. Third generation Californian–and those all rhyme to me. The only person I know who uptalks is a guy from Chicago. It’s really annoying? I don’t know how his wife lives with it, because I’d take a plank to his head? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/29 "2009-01-10T18:42:54Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > And what’s the difference between “kaht” and “kawt” again? > > … > > Because we are having this discussion in print, where everyone sees the spellings, they can convince themselves that they speak or hear these words differently, or affect the pronunciation of another dialect. Wait a minute – are you doubting that other English speakers distinguish “cot” and “caught”? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/30 "2009-01-10T19:04:51Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > It’s really annoying? I don’t know how his wife lives with it, because I’d take a plank to his head? Two otherwise intelligent adult males at work have begun putting question marks in their email. Has anyone else seen that? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/31 "2009-01-10T19:41:49Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Wait a minute – are you doubting that other English speakers distinguish “cot” and “caught”? Not that I’m **guizot** , but it’s more that it’s unlikely someone from a region that’s not known to do this actually is. People _are_ sometimes unreliable when reporting on their own speech; once you become conscious of what you’re saying, it can change the outcome and you wouldn’t even notice. What he’s saying is that when someone who normally rhymes cot and caught but isn’t aware of it reads (not hears, but reads) someone saying they don’t rhyme cot and caught, they think about the difference and then trick themselves into thinking they say it that way too. The problem in this scenario is that there’s nobody actually speaking aloud naturally and thus no actual point of reference. Mind, I’m not accusing, say, **Jonathan Chance** of being a liar. Nobody learns to speak language exactly the same way from exactly the same people, so it’s not necessary that a generalized regional dialect is spoken by absolutely everyone in that region. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/32 "2009-01-10T20:07:45Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Wait a minute – are you doubting that other English speakers distinguish “cot” and “caught”? No. I’m just not familiar with the words “kaht” and “kawt.” (Neither is in the OED.) But then that would be British pronunciation anyway, wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Flipbustle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@Flipbustle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flipbustle)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/33 "2009-01-10T20:13:15Z")
I’ve been skimming through, but I didn’t see anything about/aboot, as the way I have diferrentiated between North Americans and Canadians. The “aboot” is descended from early Scottish and mixed French. The sound is fine and has no stigma, it indicates only a way to place a person. (as far as my hearing goes) I like to try to place people by their accents. West Indies, France, Italy, Germany. Let me hear you and I’ll tell you from whence you came. Regards ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/34 "2009-01-10T21:02:42Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > No. I’m just not familiar with the words “kaht” and “kawt.” (Neither is in the OED.) But then that would be British pronunciation anyway, wouldn’t. Please tell me you’re joking. Those are not real words; they were just attempts at phonetic pronunciation. Anyway, I recorded myself saying [“hot, cot, caught, ought”](http://www.box.net/shared/gycl8u6e8p) and uploaded it at [Box.net](http://Box.net) (if anyone else wants to share how they say them). For some reason, that link is playing the other voice recordings I’ve made for other threads here, oh well. I’m from Alabama, by the way. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ETA: I spoilered my location in case anyone wants to guess. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/35 "2009-01-10T21:06:51Z")
> [@Flipbustle](#): > > I’ve been skimming through, but I didn’t see anything about/aboot, as the way I have diferrentiated between North Americans and Canadians. Yes, but this isn’t something that happened in the last few years that the OP was out of the country. Considering how mobile the U.S. is now, such changes are probably very uncommon. Within urban areas of clustered, immobile populations maybe, but it still would take more than a couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![nikonikosuru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f8ce5/32.png) [@nikonikosuru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nikonikosuru)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/36 "2009-01-10T21:13:52Z")
When did people start saying “hella” and “hecka” in California? I never encountered it until I moved here (from Michigan). I now say “hella” even though it makes me feel a little dirty. The word “hecka” still sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me, though. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/37 "2009-01-10T21:35:48Z")
On second thought, there could be something changing in my region. Someone said a couple years back that, I think it was in Tennessee, “awesome” and “blossom” rhymed. I had brought it up because the first time I saw an Awesome Blossom menu item, it was a while before it dawned on me that, up north, they would rhyme. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/38 "2009-01-10T21:57:58Z")
> [@nikonikosuru](#): > > When did people start saying “hella” and “hecka” in California? I never encountered it until I moved here (from Michigan). I now say “hella” even though it makes me feel a little dirty. The word “hecka” still sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me, though. 😛 It’s definitely not said in the South; I can’t stand hearing it, mainly because it gives me associations of online gamers and the abomination known as “poaned” for “pwned”. Some things just shouldn’t be said aloud. Liberal, “awesome” and “blossom” don’t have exactly the same initial sound, but it’s “close enough for government work”. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/39 "2009-01-10T22:04:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Someone said a couple years back that, I think it was in Tennessee, “awesome” and “blossom” rhymed. You say that as though they don’t. 🙂 Mama Plant is from Tennessee. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/40 "2009-01-10T23:05:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Two otherwise intelligent adult males at work have begun putting question marks in their email. Has anyone else seen that? You sure that’s not just a slight mangling as the email goes from system to system? I’ve seen that happen occasionally when an ISO 8859-1 document is read as Unicode, for example. It seems to affect “real” quotation marks (not ‘straight quotes’) and long (em) dashes especially. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606.md?page=3)