# Changes in American English **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606 "2009-01-09T23:10:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/41 "2009-01-10T23:14:08Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Beware of Doug writes: > > \> You mean the Great Lakes Vowel Shift, Shirley. > > Note that in the link it’s called the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. It affects the cities and their suburbs from Milwaukee to Buffalo. And this area does NOT include Southern Ontario. [The Canadian Shift](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shift): > [@](#): > > Due to the Canadian Shift, the short-a and the short-o are shifted in opposite directions to that of the Northern Cities Shift, found across the border in the Inland Northern U.S., which is causing these two dialects to diverge: the Canadian short-a is very similar in quality to the Inland Northern short-o; for example, the production [maːp] would be recognized as map in Canada, but mop in the Inland North. Now, to me in Toronto, the people on the south side of Lake Ontario in, say, Rochester, have a very noticeable accent, but that’s because I hear their speech as being more nasal than ours. I’m not sure whether that’s the same thing or not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/42 "2009-01-10T23:16:10Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > You sure that’s not just a slight mangling as the email goes from system to system? No, they send subjects like “The FAX machine you got me last week?” and one of them texted my damn cell phone while he was on vacation. “Staff email on the web?” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/43 "2009-01-11T00:31:10Z")
I pronounce ‘cot’/‘caught’, ‘mary’/‘merry’/‘marry’, and ‘Don’/‘Dawn’ the same. (Well, I pronounce ‘cot’ the same as ‘caught’. I don’t pronounce ‘cot’ the same as ‘merry’. ;)) I confess myself mystified that there is a dialect in which ‘awesome’ and ‘blossom’ do not rhyme. Born and raised in Northern Virginia, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/44 "2009-01-11T02:11:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I pronounce ‘cot’/‘caught’, ‘mary’/‘merry’/‘marry’, and ‘Don’/‘Dawn’ the same. (Well, I pronounce ‘cot’ the same as ‘caught’. I don’t pronounce ‘cot’ the same as ‘merry’. ;)) > > I confess myself mystified that there is a dialect in which ‘awesome’ and ‘blossom’ do not rhyme. > > Born and raised in Northern Virginia, for what it’s worth. See, you just don’t use the “aw” sound in most of your words. That’s why **awe** some rhymes with blossom (I’m assuming you say “ahs-em blahs-em”), don sounds the same as **dawn** , and cot sounds the same as **caught**. You’ve got me on Mary/merry/marry; those are identical to me, but that’s not the same sound. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/45 "2009-01-11T06:51:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Cot rhymes with hot, caught rhymes with ought. > [@dangermom](#): > > Third generation Californian–and those all rhyme to me. Me too. “Awesome” & “blossom” also rhyme. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/46 "2009-01-11T10:34:07Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > See, you just don’t use the “aw” sound in most of your words. It won’t help someone much on a message board to say “the ‘aw’ sound,” because they’re reading it in print. The “aw sound” (in print) for one is not the same as it is for another. Even if you were speaking, it depends on your interlocutor’s own productive capacity for sounds. Surely you’ve had the experience of studying a foreign language and encountering two phonemes (meaning sounds) that sound the same to you, while a native speaker hears a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/47 "2009-01-11T15:08:17Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Surely you’ve had the experience of studying a foreign language and encountering two phonemes (meaning sounds) that sound the same to you, while a native speaker hears a big difference. Yeah, like “pen” and “pin”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/48 "2009-01-11T18:35:17Z")
I’m from New York and pronounce the words in all of the examples given so far (caught/cot, mary/merry/marry, pen/pin, awesome/blossom [this is honestly the first time I’ve seen that those two words can rhyme. The other examples I am familiar with]) differently. Are there examples of pairs of words for which the reverse is true? That New Yorkers say the same but most other people say differently? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/49 "2009-01-11T19:06:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I cannot imagine how those words would be pronounced differently. I didn’t even understand your explanation. Try clicking the little speakers on the main entry line at [cot](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cot) and [caught](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caught). The word caught should sound more drawn out, (unless your dialect does not even let you hear the difference). ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/50 "2009-01-11T19:55:15Z")
I’m increasingly hearing young girls pronounce short-A sounds (“cat”) with a long-A: To-mah-to vice to-may-to. It sounds (to my ears) isolated, halting and not as (heh) pronounced as a full-bore, Katherine-Hepburn patrician accent. Rather, strained and affected, not unlike Madonna’s British accent. An example off the top of my head: the “Product Recall” episode of the American version of “The Office” features the clueless Andy Bernard bumping into the high school girl he’d “dated”. When she awkwardly breaks things off saying, “I have to get to Spanish”, it’s pronounced halfway between, "Spanish and “Spah-nish”. I more recently heard a 20ish travel clerk tell a friend of mine inquiring about his airplane trip, “You’re mah-nifested for tonight on the 8:00 flight”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/51 "2009-01-11T20:13:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Try clicking the little speakers on the main entry line at [cot](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cot) and [caught](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caught). The word caught should sound more drawn out, (unless your dialect does not even let you hear the difference). I hear a clear difference, but the pronounciation of “Cot” there is strikingly bizarre. It’s almost like the speaker is trying to say “cat” but not quite getting there. I’ve honestly never heard someone make that sound before in my life. Meanwhile, the pronounciation of “Caught” sounds a bit more familiar, but is very drawn out and almost a bit affected. I’ve only ever heard those words pronounced in a way that lies roughly between those two pronounciations. Southern Ontario here. I can’t describe the way people here say those words except that it’s more or less like this pronounciation of “ought” with a K at the beginning: > **[Definition of OUGHT](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ought)** > > —used to express obligation, advisability, natural expectation, or logical consequence… See the full definition That said, M-W’s sound files don’t always agree with each other, at least to my ears. Our of curiosity I looked up “Not.” According to the pronounciation IPA thing it should rhyme with “cot” but the vowel sounds the two speakers use sound distinctly different to me. “Not” is closer is vowel pronounciation to the way I’d say “Cot.” ---
**Author:** ![QuercusMax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/8baadc/32.png) [@QuercusMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuercusMax)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/52 "2009-01-11T21:03:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I hear a clear difference, but the pronounciation of “Cot” there is strikingly bizarre. It’s almost like the speaker is trying to say “cat” but not quite getting there. I’ve honestly never heard someone make that sound before in my life. Meanwhile, the pronounciation of “Caught” sounds a bit more familiar, but is very drawn out and almost a bit affected. Really? You’ve never heard someone pronounce it that way? I’ve lived in the Cleveland area all my life, and that is by far the most common way of pronouncing those words. Fascinating. Maybe you just never noticed it, since I’m sure it’s quite common on TV and in movies… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/53 "2009-01-11T21:08:44Z")
> [@QuercusMax](#): > > Really? You’ve never heard someone pronounce it that way? I’ve lived in the Cleveland area all my life, and that is by far the most common way of pronouncing those words. I could possibly believe Cleveland. As Sunspace mentioned, to our ears, the accent of people living in rust belt cities is very nasal and sharp. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/54 "2009-01-11T22:20:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I hear a clear difference, but the pronounciation of “Cot” there is strikingly bizarre. It’s almost like the speaker is trying to say “cat” but not quite getting there. I’ve honestly never heard someone make that sound before in my life. Meanwhile, the pronounciation of “Caught” sounds a bit more familiar, but is very drawn out and almost a bit affected. > > I’ve only ever heard those words pronounced in a way that lies roughly between those two pronounciations. Southern Ontario here. I can’t describe the way people here say those words except that it’s more or less like this pronounciation of “ought” with a K at the beginning: > > [OUGHT Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ought) > > That said, M-W’s sound files don’t always agree with each other, at least to my ears. Our of curiosity I looked up “Not.” According to the pronounciation IPA thing it should rhyme with “cot” but the vowel sounds the two speakers use sound distinctly different to me. “Not” is closer is vowel pronounciation to the way I’d say “Cot.” That pronunciation of “cot” sounds exactly like the way I say it, but the one for ought sounds way too clipped. I would say something more like “awt”. I can hear the difference between “pen” and “pin”, but I call them both “pins”. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/55 "2009-01-11T23:04:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I hear a clear difference, but the pronounciation of “Cot” there is strikingly bizarre. It’s almost like the speaker is trying to say “cat” but not quite getting there. I’ve honestly never heard someone make that sound before in my life. Meanwhile, the pronounciation of “Caught” sounds a bit more familiar, but is very drawn out and almost a bit affected. > > I’ve only ever heard those words pronounced in a way that lies roughly between those two pronounciations. Southern Ontario here. I can’t describe the way people here say those words except that it’s more or less like this pronounciation of “ought” with a K at the beginning: > > [OUGHT Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ought) > > That said, M-W’s sound files don’t always agree with each other, at least to my ears. Our of curiosity I looked up “Not.” According to the pronounciation IPA thing it should rhyme with “cot” but the vowel sounds the two speakers use sound distinctly different to me. “Not” is closer is vowel pronounciation to the way I’d say “Cot.” I would have rhymed ought with the M-W version of caught (which is pretty close to my pronunciation). I would also tend to agree that the M-W pronunciations are probably exaggerated for effect, (I have no idea what dialect they are supposed to represent), and that my pronunciation of cot rhymes more closely with the M-W pronunciation of not, but at least you can hear what we are talking about. My pin and pen are pretty close to interchangeable. I also tend to say melk for milk, although I may have gotten that from my Hoosier mother as I have had SE Michiganders vehemently deny that we say it that way. (I grew up in metro Detroit,) ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/56 "2009-01-12T02:25:01Z")
I was recently trying to figure out, on another message board, whether it’s common to pronounce “thither” with an unvoiced th, and I had people telling me that they couldn’t tell a difference between the voiced and unvoiced. I’d say, “Voiced is like _that_, unvoiced is like _thing_,” and they’d say, “_That_ and _thing_ both start with the same sound!” That completely baffled me. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/57 "2009-01-12T02:53:54Z")
> [@Helena](#): > > I was recently trying to figure out, on another message board, whether it’s common to pronounce “thither” with an unvoiced th, Wherefore dost thou ask? ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/58 "2009-01-12T03:15:38Z")
> [@Helena](#): > > I was recently trying to figure out, on another message board, whether it’s common to pronounce “thither” with an unvoiced th, and I had people telling me that they couldn’t tell a difference between the voiced and unvoiced. I’d say, “Voiced is like _that_, unvoiced is like _thing_,” and they’d say, “_That_ and _thing_ both start with the same sound!” That completely baffled me. Well, I’ve never heard of that distinction before, but I do see the difference. I bet they really just had no idea what you were talking about with “voiced vs. unvoiced”, so they didn’t know what to look for. It’s not exactly an important distinction in the English language. And are you sure you don’t have that backwards? I mean, I have no prior experience with this, but when I say “that”, I seal off my mouth before the initial sound comes out, but when I say “thing” air escapes while I’m making that sound. It would seem like the former would be called \*unvoiced \*and the latter _voiced_, but maybe they’re just named strangely. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ETA: Looking that up, it seems like that has nothing to do with it. I still see the difference, though. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/59 "2009-01-12T03:41:25Z")
You’re talking about “[aspiration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspiration_(phonetics))”, **Vox**. In English, unvoiced consonants tend to be aspirated (in certain contexts), while voiced consonants are not. In fact, much of what we listen for when listening for the distinction nominally between voiced and unvoiced consonants is actually aspiration instead. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606/60 "2009-01-12T04:09:38Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > You’re talking about “[aspiration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspiration_(phonetics))”, **Vox**. In English, unvoiced consonants tend to be aspirated (in certain contexts), while voiced consonants are not. In fact, much of what we listen for when listening for the distinction nominally between voiced and unvoiced consonants is actually aspiration instead. I can hear the difference in vibration in my vocal cords, too, though. Valete, Vox Imperatoris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-in-american-english/480606.md?page=4)