# Changes to Randi's Challenge **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695 "2007-01-12T13:56:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/121 "2007-01-16T22:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Tom. You are a moderator. You ought to know better. Stop inventing opinions for me. [/QUOTE] I find no substantive difference between my deliberately neutral comments and your frequent assertions. I have assigned no opinion to you; I noted that you have been angered by some of Randi’s comments. Is this not true? Have you been delighted by all of his comments? Are the comments to which you have taken exception on a topic widely divergent from the matter of dowsing? I’m not taking sides; I am pointing out to someone new to this tedious discussion that you are not making paranormal claims for yourself, but that you have taken issue with statements Randi has made. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/122 "2007-01-16T22:41:35Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Tom. You are a moderator. You ought to know better. Stop inventing opinions for me. [/QUOTE] So, it is \*not \*your opinion that Randi’s comments were objectionable? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/123 "2007-01-16T22:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] No. But I can do something that Randi says is paranormal. [/QUOTE] Perhaps you should prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/124 "2007-01-16T23:21:36Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I find no substantive difference between my deliberately neutral comments and your frequent assertions. I have assigned no opinion to you. [/QUOTE] Yes you did, and if you think your comments are neutral … I believe that the challenge works EXACTLY the way Randi says it does. Here are Randi’s words describing the challenge: > **[Home](https://web.randi.org)** > > JREF: James Randi Educational Foundation \<\< It all comes down to the very nature of a challenge. It’s not a contest; there are not two parties competing for the same prize. It’s a challenge. It’s someone who, as a result of extensive experience, doesn’t believe you can do what you say you can do, daring you to do what you say you can do. It’s a dare. It’s not at all a friendly agreement. \>\> I think, Tom, that the challenge works EXACTLY the way that Randi says it does. My opinion is the same as the EXACT LETTER of the description as laid down by Randi himself. But you invent for me an interpretation that is different in some way. It’s far from clear what you think my interpretation is, but you certainly accuse me of thinking something different. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/125 "2007-01-16T23:27:14Z")
I’m with **Peter** , up to a point. In my opinion, one formed by hearing interviews with Randi, is that Randi is to the paranormal what conspiracy theorists are to 9/11. In other words: he’s made up his mind and will do pretty much anything to ensure that nobody can pass his test. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/126 "2007-01-16T23:33:57Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] But you invent for me an interpretation that is different in some way. It’s far from clear what you think my interpretation is, but you certainly accuse me of thinking something different. [/QUOTE] In several small and one enormous thread, you have persisted in making the claim that you are treating Randi’s challenge exactly as it is written. You have in several months and hundreds of posts failed to persuade one single person of your views (including the JREF team that rejected your submission). For all I care, you are 100% correct, but having failed to persuade anyone else of that view, i consider the statement that you have an unaccepted interpretation to be accurate and neutral. At any rate, I am not going to be sucked into this vortex. I was simply trying to respond to **Jayrot** ’s question. That done, I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/127 "2007-01-16T23:34:50Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] What does the part I bolded mean? How is the challenge corrupt in science and Data? [/QUOTE] My contention is that the Science and Data are corrupt because the testing and procedure are not objective due to the Architect, namely one magician named Randi. The trials are biased and constructed to prove Randi right, not to actually determine the existence of the paranormal. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/128 "2007-01-16T23:37:08Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] The trials are biased and constructed to prove Randi right, not to actually determine the existence of the paranormal. [/QUOTE] That sounds much better than what I wrote. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/129 "2007-01-16T23:42:29Z")
The OP being the current changes to the Challenge, what improvements to the Challenge would you see as useful, **devilsnew** and **Lute Skywatcher**? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/130 "2007-01-16T23:48:21Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] I’m with **Peter** , up to a point. In my opinion, one formed by hearing interviews with Randi, is that Randi is to the paranormal what conspiracy theorists are to 9/11. In other words: he’s made up his mind and will do pretty much anything to ensure that nobody can pass his test. [/QUOTE] Sigh. Because no one IS going to pass his test. If he seems stringent in enforcing the rules of his test it’s because he doesn’t want a fraud claiming the prize and “proving him wrong”. If someone came to Randi tomorrow with a genuine supernatural ability - meaning they could undeniably fly, or move things with their mind, or read people’s thoughts under scientific scrutiny, etc - Randi would be _thrilled_. Believe me, he would be thrilled. It would change the world forever and turn science on its ear - something scientists and skeptics _like_. It’s not James Randi’s intention to hide people’s supernatural abilities from the world. It is his belief that people don’t have supernatural abilities - and, so far, he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/131 "2007-01-16T23:52:37Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] My contention is that the Science and Data are corrupt because the testing and procedure are not objective due to the Architect, namely one magician named Randi. The trials are biased and constructed to prove Randi right, not to actually determine the existence of the paranormal. [/QUOTE] So you believe that if a person had a certifiable supernatural ability - say, the ability to fly like superman - Randi would not award him or her the prize? Where should the line be drawn? Should cold readers, dowsers, spoon benders, psychic surgeons, etc, all be allowed to continually chip away at the prize until one of them finally cracks it on a technicality? Do you believe that there are people living in the world today with supernatural abilities but we don’t know it because they are being covered up by James Randi? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/132 "2007-01-16T23:54:15Z")
[QUOTE=devilsknew] My contention is that the Science and Data are corrupt because the testing and procedure are not objective due to the Architect, namely one magician named Randi. [/QUOTE] So, what you’re saying is [this guy](http://static.flickr.com/15/88477750_4e73bf6139.jpg) has used magic to corrupt [this guy](http://media.g4tv.com/images/imagedb2/405/40552_L.jpg)? Man, these cross-show fanfics get confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/133 "2007-01-17T00:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I was simply trying to respond to **Jayrot** ’s question. That done, I’m outta here. [/QUOTE] Jayroy directed his question to ME. Why the hell did you think you needed to reply for me. Why the hell did you think you had the right? You do not tell others what my opinions are, especially if you can’t be bothered to get them right. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/134 "2007-01-17T00:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Sigh. Because no one IS going to pass his test. [/quote] It’s a Catch-22. No one is ever going to pass his test because his test is designed to be impoosible to pass. > [@](#): > > If someone came to Randi tomorrow with a genuine supernatural ability - meaning they could undeniably fly, or move things with their mind, or read people’s thoughts under scientific scrutiny, etc - Randi would be _thrilled_. Believe me, he would be thrilled. I think when he first set up the JREF he’d be thrilled but he has too much of a personal stake now. > [@](#): > > Do you believe that there are people living in the world today with supernatural abilities but we don’t know it because they are being covered up by James Randi? Personally, I think if–and that’s a pretty big if–anyone has deveolped abilities beyond our current understanding of nature and the human body, they’d be doing their best to cover up _themselves_. People have an inherent prejudice toward anything that is not normal (i.e.: not like themselves), just think of how somoene with actual “paranormal” ability would be treated! They’d either be feared or end up as a sideshow, maybe both. I’m not sure a million bucks would be worth that. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/135 "2007-01-17T00:29:00Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] It’s a Catch-22. No one is ever going to pass his test because his test is designed to be impossible to pass. [/QUOTE] **Lute** , would you mind reading my post #129 as if it has “put up or shut up” on the end? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/136 "2007-01-17T00:34:43Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] It’s a Catch-22. No one is ever going to pass his test because his test is designed to be impoosible to pass [/QUOTE] No - no one is ever going to pass his test because it’s designed to be impossible for a fraud to pass. Can you cite how it would be impossible for a person with legitimate supernatural abilities to pass? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/137 "2007-01-17T00:36:41Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] **Lute** , would you mind reading my post #129 as if it has “put up or shut up” on the end? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I don’t really have an answer other than “replace Randi with somone who has no bias one way or the other, while at the same time ensuring Sylvia Browne and her ilk don’t get a red cent.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/138 "2007-01-17T00:41:56Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Can you cite how it would be impossible for a person with legitimate supernatural abilities to pass? [/QUOTE] As I said, it’s my opinion that Randi is to the supernatural what conspiracy theorists are to 9/11. Why are you asking me to cite an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/139 "2007-01-17T00:46:04Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] If someone came to Randi tomorrow with a genuine supernatural ability - meaning they could undeniably fly, or move things with their mind, or read people’s thoughts under scientific scrutiny, etc - Randi would be _thrilled_. Believe me, he would be thrilled. It would change the world forever and turn science on its ear - something scientists and skeptics _like_. . [/QUOTE] I don’t think so. I think that Randi is a bigot who hates paranormal claims with a passion. I see no genuine willingness to test peoples claims, just a determination to humiliate them any way he can. All he does is spread hate against a group of people because he deeply resents their beliefs. If anyone came forward and proved the ability to read minds or bend metal, if Randi couldn’t claim they are cheating, or find some way to say that it isn’t paranormal, or find some excuse to ignore it then he would be absoloutely horrified. He would have to admit that he has been wrong about everything his entire life, and he has enough trouble admitting even to minor mistakes. If anyone ever succeeds, it will destroy him utterly. He’d spend the rest of his life curled up in the corner of a rubber room. (And he can’t escape from a _real_ straightjacket.) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695/140 "2007-01-17T00:53:13Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] As I said, it’s my opinion that Randi is to the supernatural what conspiracy theorists are to 9/11. Why are you asking me to cite an opinion? [/QUOTE] No, you said that no one is going to pass his test because it is designed to be impossible to pass. That’s not an opinion. > [@Peter Morris](#): > > I don’t think so. I think that Randi is a bigot who hates paranormal claims with a passion. I see no genuine willingness to test peoples claims, just a determination to humiliate them any way he can. All he does is spread hate against a group of people because he deeply resents their beliefs. > > If anyone came forward and proved the ability to read minds or bend metal, if Randi couldn’t claim they are cheating, or find some way to say that it isn’t paranormal, or find some excuse to ignore it then he would be absoloutely horrified. He would have to admit that he has been wrong about everything his entire life, and he has enough trouble admitting even to minor mistakes. > > If anyone ever succeeds, it will destroy him utterly. He’d spend the rest of his life curled up in the corner of a rubber room. (And he can’t escape from a real straightjacket.) Your mouth-foaming obsession with Randi is scary. I believe this is all in your head. Randi deeply resents frauds, which all supernatural claimants in the history of the human race have so far been. He would be delighted to meet someone with actual supernatural abilities, but he is intelligent enough to know that his chances of winning powerball every week for the rest of his life are greater. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changes-to-randis-challenge/387695.md?page=8)