# Changing An Electrical Outlet Without Turning The Power Off **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545 "2010-07-30T03:12:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/41 "2010-07-30T18:14:28Z")
First, God I hate shared neutrals. That is some lazy, dangerous wiring. I once was changing a ceiling fan in a friend’s old house. I killed the breaker before starting. While I was up there the friend turns the lights on in the kitchen and ‘poof’, on goes the light in my hands. Turned off the main after that. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Every two outlet circuit in my kitchen (there are three of them) is wired to two separate circuits (the same two). The electrician who did this said the code required it. The reason he gave was that in a kitchen you might be tempted to plug in a toaster in the top and a coffee maker in the bottom and that would exceed the 15 amps of one circuit. Of course, there is no reason I couldn’t plug the toaster into the top of one of the outlets and the coffee maker into the top of a different one, with the same effect. Nonetheless the point above is well taken. Unless you have tested every outlet, don’t assume that if one is off, so is the other. > > I suppose I could replace a live outlet, but I’ll be damned if I would try. OK, that was a confused electrician. My (amateur) understanding is that new installations and remodels require two 20 amp breakers for kitchen outlets (not 15, but I am not sure if that is a code requirement or just a recommendation) but they are generally run to different outlets. So, half of the outlets will be on one circuit and half on another, but both plugs on a single outlet will be on the same circuit. Still, you should always be wary of the potential of one plug being on one circuit and the other on a different one. This should be readily apparent as soon as you open the box. It is usually done so that you have one standard wall plug while the other one is dedicated to a lamp that is controlled by a wall switch. I am unsure if the lamp plug is usually included on the outlet breaker or the overhead light breaker (haven’t had cause to install this way before). For any given room the overhead lights and the outlets should be on separate breakers if for no other reason than to make it easier to work on one (while getting light from the other). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/42 "2010-07-30T18:15:58Z")
Quoth **dmatsch** : > [@](#): > > I was an electronics engineer in the Air Force, so I know how it feels to get bit by 110 (5000v, 15,000v). It’s the amperage. 1/4 of a volt will kill you if it’s \> .01 amp. People are always saying that it’s not the voltage that kills you, it’s the amperage, but that’s really misleading, since for any given resistor (like, say, the human body), there’s a 1 to 1 correspondence between voltage and current. And really, when you look at the actual processes involved, it’s not the volts _or_ the amps that kill you: It’s either the watts or the hertz. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/43 "2010-07-30T18:23:55Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > (In case anyone was wondering, he was shocked because his coworker screwed up and turned on the breaker that was turned off without checking that anyone was working. This wasn’t a residential job - it was commercial and I’m not sure of the actual details of the device hubby was working on). LOTO ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/44 "2010-07-30T18:32:25Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > So I open up the box. Unscrew the hot grab it with my hand and move it over to the new outlet and screw it on, no problem. > On the neutral side there are two wires, one comes in the bottom of the box, and the other comes in the top. I unscrew the lower wire and move it to the new outlet. I unscrew the top wire and grab it, :eek: and get the mother loving shock of my life. :eek: It traveled up my right arm, around my rib cage and out my back where it was leaning against my new gas stove. I say gas, because gas pipes are buried in the ground and are well umm grounded. > It turns out that I got shocked by a shared neutral. That wire that went out the top of that outlet went to the light on the ceiling that was on another circuit. When I disconnected the lower wire I broke the ground connection, and that upper wire became live with 120V looking for a ground. It found one though my body. > I hate shared neutrals. using a device (receptacle in this case) to provide neutral conductivity is an electrical code violation in the USA ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/45 "2010-07-30T19:09:48Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > > [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > > > (In case anyone was wondering, he was shocked because his coworker screwed up and turned on the breaker that was turned off without checking that anyone was working. This wasn’t a residential job - it was commercial and I’m not sure of the actual details of the device hubby was working on). > > LOTO Lord of the Oranges? FWIW, his company does have a lockout procedure which they may or may not follow and the doof that flipped the switch was actually the site supervisor. :rolleyes: They’re not suppose to work live, ever. Hubby assures me that the supervisor is actually not a twit, but I’m not convinced. However, that job is wrapped up and hubby is now on a different project with a different supervisor who hopefully is a bit more on the ball. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/46 "2010-07-30T19:16:12Z")
LOTO = lock out / tag out The way it is supposed to work is the guy doing the work turns off the breaker and installs the lock or tag on the breaker so that no one else will turn it on. When the guy is done working, he removes the lock/tag and turns the breaker back on. Only the guy who installed the lock or tag can remove it. It doesn’t matter if Mr. Doofus is the site supervisor, president of the company, or whatever. He can’t remove the tag and flip the breaker on since he’s not the one who put the tag on in the first place. At least that’s the way it is supposed to work. Obviously it didn’t work in this case. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/47 "2010-07-30T19:16:21Z")
Yeah, my father-in-law helped me change the outlets in my house when we remodelled. It was an old house, and we needed to change to 3-prong. He had worked with electricians and showed me how to do it carefully. Fortunately the wiring had been 3-wire (grounded) to the metal outlet boxes even if the plugs weren’t, so it was easy to hook up a safe ground. Theoretically, you never touch anything to anything (or to yourself) to complete a circuit, so it’s no different than the wires just sitting in the wall - until you go “oops”. You unhook the wires one at a time from the old outlet and attach to the new socket- first the two white, then the two black; do the ground last or first; don’t touch anything. I still burned one outlet when it touched the side of the box while being pushed in. And yes, any house but especially the older ones- wiring can be wonky.Reversed black and white are common - especially if some DIY amateur like me has added an outlet and not understood colour-codes. Even the pros are sometimes useless; a friend once had a (electrical) fire in the house he rented out, the fire department turned off the power, and he got a shock while checking for what needed to be repaired. The mains were hooked up backward, so the FD turned off the neutral connection. I recall the building engineer where I worked hitting the roof when he found that some departments were talking to a guy who sold dimmable flourescent light kits. In our large building, he said, they ahd wired a LOT of common neutrals - several phases charing a neutral in 3-phase wiring. Dimming flourescents by clipping the power wave would create out-of-phase power in amps vs. voltage - the additive amperage if phases overlapped could overload the neutral and set the building on fire. So, yes you can do anything live. I have accidentally touched an exposed wire when I was a kid, and my dad once had me hold the spark plug to the engine block while he cranked the lawnmower. My unprofessional observation - electricity hurts like hell. So if you really don’t know for sure what you are doing, don’t. Or, in the words of John Belushi from Animal House - _if you can’t fly, don’t f_ck with the eagles\*. ---
**Author:** ![Lare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lare)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/48 "2010-07-30T19:19:14Z")
My Dad worked as a construction electrician and had this device that took multiple padlocks. [https://www.signet.net.au/App\_Assets/user/products/full/Brady\_safety\_lockout\_hasp\_10257.jpg](https://www.signet.net.au/App_Assets/user/products/full/Brady_safety_lockout_hasp_10257.jpg) Everyone had their own padlock and there were no master keys. When locking out a circuit, he put his padlock on the device–which made it impossible for anyone to throw the switch and energize the circuit. If someone else was working on the same circuit this person added his own padlock. There could be up to 6 padlocks on the lockout device and no one could re-energize the circuit until all the padlocks were removed. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/49 "2010-07-30T19:20:24Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > LOTO = lock out / tag out > > The way it is supposed to work is the guy doing the work turns off the breaker and installs the lock or tag on the breaker so that no one else will turn it on. When the guy is done working, he removes the lock/tag and turns the breaker back on. > > Only the guy who installed the lock or tag can remove it. It doesn’t matter if Mr. Doofus is the site supervisor, president of the company, or whatever. He can’t remove the tag and flip the breaker on since he’s not the one who put the tag on in the first place. At least that’s the way it is supposed to work. Obviously it didn’t work in this case. Ahh - yes!! We discussed this. Apparently hubby wasn’t given a lock/tag, and neither were any of the other guys on site - only Mr. Supervisor. Now, hubby and I have agreed that from now on he will insist on getting his tag (nothing like an 8.5 months pregnant wife getting all hysterical/screaming/yelling/crying on your ass to motivate) and using it, but I still think supervisor is kind of a boob. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/50 "2010-07-30T19:27:39Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Even the pros are sometimes useless; a friend once had a (electrical) fire in the house he rented out, the fire department turned off the power, and he got a shock while checking for what needed to be repaired. The mains were hooked up backward, so the FD turned off the neutral connection. the neutral should only be switched if the hot wires are also switched at the same time, a ganged switch. your story is incomplete as to how the fire department turned off the power; did they do so with a switch or disconnect wires. what you’ve said doesn’t make sense to me as you’ve stated it. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/51 "2010-07-30T19:40:19Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > LOTO = lock out / tag out > > The way it is supposed to work is the guy doing the work turns off the breaker and installs the lock or tag on the breaker so that no one else will turn it on. When the guy is done working, he removes the lock/tag and turns the breaker back on. > > Only the guy who installed the lock or tag can remove it. It doesn’t matter if Mr. Doofus is the site supervisor, president of the company, or whatever. He can’t remove the tag and flip the breaker on since he’s not the one who put the tag on in the first place. At least that’s the way it is supposed to work. Obviously it didn’t work in this case. To expand on that, most [lockout devices](http://www.completesafetysupply.com/images/SL1-NMC.jpg) have multiple holes. So when I go to work on a machine, I can put the device on the power supply and my padlock. If then you need to work on the same circuit, you can put your lock on it also. So even when I’m done, I still can’t turn it back on. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/52 "2010-07-30T19:55:38Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Every two outlet circuit in my kitchen (there are three of them) is wired to two separate circuits (the same two). The electrician who did this said the code required it. The reason he gave was that in a kitchen you might be tempted to plug in a toaster in the top and a coffee maker in the bottom and that would exceed the 15 amps of one circuit. Of course, there is no reason I couldn’t plug the toaster into the top of one of the outlets and the coffee maker into the top of a different one, with the same effect. Nonetheless the point above is well taken. Unless you have tested every outlet, don’t assume that if one is off, so is the other. in the USA the code would require that the circuit breakers feeding the two circuits be tied together so that both are off at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/53 "2010-07-30T20:00:15Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > > [@Rick](#): > > > > So I open up the box. Unscrew the hot grab it with my hand and move it over to the new outlet and screw it on, no problem. > > On the neutral side there are two wires, one comes in the bottom of the box, and the other comes in the top. I unscrew the lower wire and move it to the new outlet. I unscrew the top wire and grab it, :eek: and get the mother loving shock of my life. :eek: It traveled up my right arm, around my rib cage and out my back where it was leaning against my new gas stove. I say gas, because gas pipes are buried in the ground and are well umm grounded. > > It turns out that I got shocked by a shared neutral. That wire that went out the top of that outlet went to the light on the ceiling that was on another circuit. When I disconnected the lower wire I broke the ground connection, and that upper wire became live with 120V looking for a ground. It found one though my body. > > I hate shared neutrals. > > using a device (receptacle in this case) to provide neutral conductivity is an electrical code violation in the USA 60 year old house. That section has been rewired sans shared neutral anyway. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/54 "2010-07-30T20:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=johnpost] your story is incomplete as to how the fire department turned off the power; did they do so with a switch or disconnect wires. [/QUOTE] I don’t know about other jurisdictions, but around here, firefighters will cut power with what looks like a set of fiberglass-handled branch loppers. I’ve also seen at fire scenes where someone sawed through the main conduit, wires and all, with a Sawzall. Presumably this was done after the power was off further up the line. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/55 "2010-07-30T21:06:32Z")
[quote=“Joey\_P, post:21, topic:548545”] > [@Keeve](#): > > > [@Markxxx](#): > > > > it is dangerous to change the outlet if you leave the power on, but it is impossible to change the outlet if you turn the power off. One solution is to get a good flashlight, but that might not be easy. So instead, leave the power on, and be very careful. > > There was a Handy Manny episode about exactly that. They ended up using a bunch of mirrors to reflect light from the kitchen on to the work area. Wouldn’t it be simpler to use a table lamp from elsewhere in the house & an extension cord into an outlet in the next room? Actually, many electricians now have a portable work light (like [this)](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/D4wA6ThVWn_b9lCOojCgF6Sxl1ZYPXG-3TnehfkD8LLTDs7tHUj2ljigZQVq1NjogYZSKx_J1rENOfAwCpwwoHevvdll8WQ3ia33YoQJ4FfR7n0XKfxQJJB4t8yUzVzG2i6USK_YK8jn130Ay0Pa7o7Fh7pK6BJ50l0q-pThAgM) for just such situations. A big, adjustable, hands-free light like that is much safer than a flashlight. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/56 "2010-07-30T21:17:47Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > This is why you should never flip breaker switches till the unit you are gonna work on is “off”. If you are not sure of what you are doing, please shut off the entire home at the main. But that can cause much more problems elsewhere. First, hope that power cut didn’t hurt any computers, home theatre systems, stereos, etc. that are in the house. Then think about all the items that will have to be reset once you turn the main power back on: clocks, bedroom alarm clocks, computer clocks, VCR/DVD clocks, TV clocks, thermostat clock, microwave clock, etc. And then there are all the the items that need to be reset/reprogrammed: re-program/rescan your digital TV channels, re-program stations on your radio, re-record your answering machine message, reset your kitchen stove, reprogram the individual setting on your washing machine, etc., etc. (Some of the newer ones might have batteries that will last for a few hours – assuming the batteries aren’t dead.) This will involve a whole lot of work for you (or the homeowner) to do afterwards, to get the house back working as it was before you came to ‘fix’ the wiring. A better action is to study the situation until “you are sure of what you are doing” before starting to do the work. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/57 "2010-07-30T21:18:54Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > For the benefit of anyone coming into this thread, you never, ever, want to use your water pipe as a ground. It used to be that you were required to ground the house through the cold water pipe. That was changed many years ago and now a separate ground is required. A lot of folks back then used to use water pipes as their ground, but what you really want to do is keep your protective grounds from your circuits completely separate from your water pipes. However, you also want to ground all of your metal water pipes for safety. > > You want your water pipes grounded, but you don’t want to use the water pipes as grounds for anything else. An electrician I had out just a few weeks ago claimed that you must ground the breaker box to the cold water pipe inlet as a _secondary ground_ under code. Was he incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/58 "2010-07-30T21:26:15Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > An electrician I had out just a few weeks ago claimed that you must ground the breaker box to the cold water pipe inlet as a _secondary ground_ under code. Was he incorrect? Depends on your location, and the code in effect there. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/59 "2010-07-30T21:35:36Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > An electrician I had out just a few weeks ago claimed that you must ground the breaker box to the cold water pipe inlet as a _secondary ground_ under code. Was he incorrect? He was incorrect. You are required to ground the pipe to the panel. But it’s not like wires only let power go one way, so if the houses actual ground failed the piping would function as a secondary ground. That isn’t the intent of the code however. The code wants you to ground any metal components of the structure in case a wire comes lose or what not and touches the metal it will ground out and throw the breaker. If a live wire hit metal that was ungrounded nothing would happen until some poor sap came along and completes the circuit to ground electrifying themselves in the process. The largest topic of the electrical code book is ‘grounding and bonding’ it is simple in theory but put to print it gets very complex even very experienced pros get the terms mixed up, then there is the ever popular mistranslation of customers or electricians attempts to translate the language into something they can follow. ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545/60 "2010-07-30T21:41:20Z")
I used to do it all the time, along with hot wiring ceiling fans and light fixtures. I probably have swapped out more than 500 outlets hot but in 2008 my good friend Jim Hilton was working on our friends condo and was electrocuted swapping an outlet in the kitchen. Since that day, I haven’t touched any electrical work other than the stuff on my motorcycles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-an-electrical-outlet-without-turning-the-power-off/548545.md?page=4)