Changing citizenship back to a previously renounced one

[Hocus_Pocus]

@glowacks

Circumstances can change in a person’s life such that one may want to return to being a citizen of a country from which one has previously renounced citizenship. You may decide at 18 that you don’t think you want to have any ties to the place you happened to be born but from which your parents moved when you were an infant, and later in life have returned to the country in which you were born with a completely different perspective, perhaps due to business relations or a better appreciation of your predecessors’ culture. The two countries involved possibly don’t recognize dual citizenship, so you may have had to pick one at your coming of legal age and later changed your mind.

Regardless, it stands to reason that there might be people who change their minds about being a citizen of a certain country, and want to get back what they had once renounced. Is there anything stopping this in general? Is it just too hard to even get back into a country that you have renounced citizenship from? Do they treat you like a sore loser and say “you had your chance, now go away”, or do they welcome you back? I’m guessing it depends on the country, but I can’t find any information on anyone wanting to renaturalize anywhere at all.

One of the most infamous people in US history did this.

[md2000]

@Melbourne

Nah. Renouncing US citizenship doesn’t actually get you out of paying income tax: the USA is also possibly the only country which makes you pay income tax on world wide income even after you’ve renounced your citizenship.

Q1: If you live outside the US, how do they make you pay after you’ve renounced?
A1: The same way the make you pay before you renounce.

Q2: Do your really have to pay US income tax?
A2: Nope. Many places have reciprocal arrangements, and you get tax credits bigger than your tax bill.

Q3: Then why bother?
A3: The US tax forms are /Insane/. And it’s even worse if you earn overseas income.

Q4: What if you’re really rich?
A4: The rich are different.

I’d like to see the cite too.
No matter your citizenship or location, everyone pays taxes on money earned inside the USA.
Also, renouncing your citizenship does not get you out of past obligations in terms of payments or reporting.
But going forward… no tax.

Google Edward Saverin, a Facebook founder who is now no longer a US citizen and will not have to pay capital gains on his Facebook stock while living in Singapore.

[nicky]

@coremelt

I’d like to see some cites for that. The US has special reporting requirements for US citizens opening overseas bank accounts. After you no longer have US citizenship you just open a new foreign bank account using your new citizenship. You then stop filing US tax returns. Unless you still have assets in the US what can they do at that point?

Also how will a foreign bank tell the difference between a local and a apparent local who happens also to be citizen of the US? Place of birth is all i can think of, and woudl that be demanded?

[nicky]

@kferr

This is basically it. If you’re just Joe Average working a normal job it doesn’t really matter much. There is a tax treaty between the US and UK that allows you to offset UK taxes paid against US taxes owed. The tax rate in the UK is a bit higher so I never owed any US taxes under normal circumstances. But now I’m looking towards retirement and want to move money into better investments. The US passed a law requiring information on all US citizen’s financial details. This clashes with EU data protection laws so many EU financial institutions simply won’t deal with US customers. There are also certain types of investments/accounts in the UK where the interest is tax free that the US don’t recognize as tax free, such as UK Premium Bonds. There are also problems with how the US views UK pension plans. Lottery winnings are also tax free here so if I hit the £32.6 million jackpot tonight I don’t have to give any to the US.

The tl;dr version - the IRS are bastards.

Interesting: how exactly are UK financial institutions realising youre American?

[Dr.Drake]

@nicky

Also how will a foreign bank tell the difference between a local and a apparent local who happens also to be citizen of the US? Place of birth is all i can think of, and woudl that be demanded?

True story: I opened an account in the UK as an American citizen around 15 years ago. Last time I was there just before the new rules kicked in, so I went into the bank with my Canadian passport and asked to change the citizenship of record on the account. No problem, and since accounts (at least at that bank) can only be coded for one citizenship, it is not considered an American-held account, even though I’m just as American as I ever was, and the bank was officially aware of it.

[Siam_Sam]

@nicky

Also how will a foreign bank tell the difference between a local and a apparent local who happens also to be citizen of the US? Place of birth is all i can think of, and woudl that be demanded?

@nicky

Interesting: how exactly are UK financial institutions realising youre American?

Your accent maybe? Speaking for Thailand, anyone opening a bank account must show their national ID (for citizens) or passport (for foreigners).

[coremelt]

@nicky

Interesting: how exactly are UK financial institutions realising youre American?

They ask you. Sure you can lie if you have another citizenship but if you are then caught you could be getting a big fine on top of what other extra taxes you owe.

[nicky]

i dont see how the irs can sanction you for lying on a foreign banks account application form.

[coremelt]

@nicky

i dont see how the irs can sanction you for lying on a foreign banks account application form.

They don’t, they fine you for having undeclared foreign assets.

[kferr]

@nicky

Also how will a foreign bank tell the difference between a local and a apparent local who happens also to be citizen of the US? Place of birth is all i can think of, and woudl that be demanded?

I opened my first UK account 20 years ago long before I had dual nationality and I don’t recall any questions being asked. Once I got dual nationality if the question was asked I’d answer British which is true. The problems with retaining the US citizenship came to a head when I started working with an investment firm to better invest my savings and sort out my pensions. They knew my dual citizenship status and omitting that information when investing my money would get them in trouble. Now that I’m free from the US they can invest in the best available funds. I now only have 2 or 3 more forms to fill out for the IRS, a 2015 1040 for the income earned up thru the renunciation date in August, and an expatriation form which basically tells them to fuck off and stop bothering me.

[Melbourne]

@coremelt

I’d like to see some cites for that. The US has special reporting requirements for US citizens opening overseas bank accounts. After you no longer have US citizenship you just open a new foreign bank account using your new citizenship. You then stop filing US tax returns. Unless you still have assets in the US what can they do at that point?

Exactly what they could do to you if you hadn’t renounced citizenship.
In addition to the points already raised, let me add that they could fine your bank, and ban it from acting in the US – reasons which have led many banks and investment business to refuse business from American citizens.

Also (citation) http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
“n general, any person who lost U.S. nationality within 10 years immediately preceding the close of the taxable year, whose principle purpose in losing nationality was to avoid taxation, will be subject to continued taxation.”

[coremelt]

Relevant experience, I just opened a bank account in Thailand today with Kasikorn Bank. I had to fill out a two page form which was solely declaring that I was not a US citizen, that I was not a US permanent resident, that I was not doing banking on behalf of a US citizen etc etc about 20 different questions which all just asked in various ways if the US had any business in my affairs.

I presented a British passport, I’m an Australian / UK dual citizen with no assets in the US so I said no to all of them. Two years ago when I last opened a bank account in Thailand there was none of this. So yes they take this seriously and Foreign banks also take this seriously.

[Siam_Sam]

@coremelt

Relevant experience, I just opened a bank account in Thailand today with Kasikorn Bank. I had to fill out a two page form which was solely declaring that I was not a US citizen, that I was not a US permanent resident, that I was not doing banking on behalf of a US citizen etc etc about 20 different questions which all just asked in various ways if the US had any business in my affairs.

I presented a British passport, I’m an Australian / UK dual citizen with no assets in the US so I said no to all of them. Two years ago when I last opened a bank account in Thailand there was none of this. So yes they take this seriously and Foreign banks also take this seriously.

I’ve not heard of any Thai banks actually closing the accounts of any American customers like banks in some countries have started doing, but I’ve heard of some Americans here being refused new accounts.