# Changing names, removing statues while avoiding 1984-ism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444 "2020-06-23T16:51:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/183 "2020-07-01T22:08:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That has nothing to do with the rabid mobs tearing down statues which originally were supposed to be limited to the most egregious members of the Confederacy but now has expanded to be practically any random statue. You’re still ignoring the armed rabble on the right. > [@octopus](#): > > There is nothing paranoid or ‘racist’ about defending one’s private property There is when they’ve decided that the BLM protesters in the street, who were headed for the mayor’s house and had zero interest in theirs, were some sort of threat which needed a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol pointed at them. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/184 "2020-07-01T22:30:56Z")
If those two gun totin’ idiots had been part of Madam Mayor’s security rather than lawyers living down the street, then you _might_ have a point. As lawyers, they should have known better. This is going to limit prospective clients to like-minded induhviduals. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/185 "2020-07-01T23:20:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > None of that is true with regards to large scale destruction and violence which is currently happening for the purposes of political intimidation and to enact radical ideological change. With the destruction of non confederate statues I think avoiding the 1984ism is too late. What “large scale destruction and violence”? After some initial breakouts of looting, which were almost universally condemned, there’s been a handful of minor league property destructive incidents. And almost all of the violence against persons has been from the right. Yes, there are mixed opinions on destroying monuments to white supremacism (while almost universal condemnation of the very few non white supremacist statues, like one for Grant, damaged). That’s entirely reasonable considering our history - it was an act of property destruction that sparked the creation of this country, after all. That stuff is in the country’s DNA. But the incidents are few enough that they can all be individually discussed in this thread of a few dozen posts. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/186 "2020-07-02T00:30:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > When self defense is demonized and vandalism, menacing, trespassing, arson, looting, rape, murder etc. are euphemistically referred to as “peaceful protests” you know that we are living what Orwell warned about in 1984 and Animal Farm. _Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling._ _Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes…The dead rising from the grave._ _Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria._ …Who are we going to call? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/187 "2020-07-02T13:16:54Z")
Octopus, The problem is that sometimes for change to happen the old order must be destroyed. This is one of those times. The statues are permanent propaganda of the old order. The old order is maintained by those currently in power. Destroying the statues is an acceptable substitute for armed rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/188 "2020-07-02T13:18:53Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The problem is that sometimes for change to happen the old order must be destroyed. This is one of those times. The statues are permanent propaganda of the old order. The old order is maintained by those cur Oh no! The old order got to him in the middle of a sentence! CRANE MUST NOT BE SILENCED! ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/189 "2020-07-02T13:21:28Z")
Edit came to the rescue! ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/190 "2020-07-02T23:44:50Z")
And now Erdagon wants to change the Hagia Sophia back to a Mosque to revive his political fortunes and assert himself as a defender of Islam. > **[Erdogan Should Not Erase Turkey’s Christian Past](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/01/hagia-sophia-erdogan-erase-turkeys-christian-past/)** > > The Turkish president wants to turn Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia back into a mosque. Destroying its dual Orthodox-Islamic heritage would be a blow to religious pluralism… > [@](#): > > Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia was, for nearly 1,000 years, the largest and most important house of Christian worship in the world until it was converted into mosque in the 15th century. The building, now a museum, is still filled with priceless Christian mosaics and frescoes. It is also one of the most contested religious buildings in the world. > > On July 2, the Turkish high court will rule on President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s request to annul the 1934 decree that turned Hagia Sophia from a mosque into a museum. If the court says yes, the decision will reverberate across the world. > > > Erdogan has consistently expressed his desire to return Hagia Sophia to its previous status as a mosque. This stance plays well with his pious political base. > > Now he seems to be in a hurry; his hand-picked Presidential [High Advisory Board discussed the matter on June 16](https://protect-us.mimecast.com/s/b0L9ClYEQ2H2BXyxFGKofr?domain=eu.greekreporter.com). If the court decides to annul the 86-year-old law, some advisors are hoping that Islamic prayers could be held in the mosque on July 15, the anniversary of the failed coup against Erdogan’s government in 2016. The Turkish Court delayed the decision for 15 days. > **[Hagia Sophia: Turkey delays decision on turning site into mosque](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53232110)** > > Turkey's Council of State will announce if the iconic site can revert into a mosque within 15 days. > [@](#): > > The Council of State - Turkey’s highest administrative body - said it would make a ruling within 15 days, after a hearing lasting just 17 minutes. > > The 1,500 year old Unesco World Heritage site was originally a cathedral before becoming a mosque and then a museum in the 1930s. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/191 "2020-07-03T08:24:55Z")
> **[Elk statue removed from downtown Portland after protesters set its base ablaze](https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/elk-statue-removed-from-downtown-portland-after-vandalism-protests/283-db3a1cdf-05c4-4a0e-9df9-5f2e99d4c6ba)** > > The owner of the Thompson Elk, the Regional Arts and Culture Council, found that the base of the statue was severely damaged and it had become a safety hazard. Good thing the mob was able to remove this racist symbol of the old order dominated by the so-called white male patriarchy. Its antlers were a constant reminder to the antlerless of their inferiority. Concerning armed rebellion, the Marxists and anarchists don’t want that. They want to subvert legitimate protest in order to advance a bigoted, destructive, internally inconsistent and ignorant agenda under the aegis of the idea of equality. It’s farcical and counterproductive. As bad as the mob is their destructive enablers in mayor’s offices and governor’s mansions in the blue cities and states are 10 times as bad. Funny how even their tunes change when the horde shows up at their residences. Then, the protection of property and life is important. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/192 "2020-07-03T09:42:35Z")
Mississippi is changing her flag and confederate monuments are being torn down left and right. Remember, all of this is thanks to direct action and civil disobedience. It really works. I just hope these public and prominent concessions to social decency don’t end up satisfying the public. Deep changes to the criminal justice system is sorely needed too. Perhaps what isn’t done though social action can be done through the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/193 "2020-07-03T12:29:33Z")
Eh, the Founding Fathers were a rebellious, violent, mob too. Don’t like it, don’t be born in a country founded by whiny elite English Protestants willing to kill for their ideals, with their descendants fetishizing this peculiar version of ‘freedom’. [![Google Photos](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2deHTE39k7DNj6fA9Fpz23OQkqDLgxBXcPBklbrDbACGFlU3jEkd760iqHbJl7SOGz1RBHq6fL18B6V32P0GJcFY5bWYc_npA3pPP2Ic21EQlQKA7xjTj6n1KEDUH2Wqmu5zcKauBw=w600-h315-p-k "New item by John Thornton") ](https://photos.app.goo.gl/HKuQyQCz5SqR4x9f7) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/194 "2020-07-07T00:08:07Z")
Imma just leave this here. > **[Right-Wing Militias Found No Antifa Event at Gettysburg—So Harassed a Man in...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-wing-militias-found-no-antifa-event-at-gettysburgso-harassed-a-man-in-a-cemetery-instead)** > > Police escorted the man out of the Gettysburg National Cemetery where he had been visiting the grave of an ancestor. ---
**Author:** ![Enkidu1971](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Enkidu1971](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkidu1971)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/195 "2020-07-07T00:29:20Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > It’s possible to admire the line level actions and bravery without glorifying the cause. Bravery means nothing without reference to its goal. 12th SS Panzer Division “Hitlerjugend” fought skillfully in Normandy, but were hardly admirable. Same with the Confederate Army. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/197 "2020-07-07T19:35:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Just because the violent mob has some peaceful folk doesn’t mean that the violent mob isn’t tearing stuff down, shooting folks, burning buildings, looting, etc. and are you seriously claiming that the only source for that is Fox News? Seriously? Precisely the reason that the police need to raid football and basketball stadiums, and break up the games with tear gas. Sure some claim that most people who watch sports are peaceful but evidence shows that they are really [mostly into violence and property destruction](https://metro.co.uk/2018/02/05/here-are-five-american-cities-which-rioted-after-sporting-success-and-defeat-7289493/). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/198 "2020-07-07T21:53:21Z")
[quote=“UltraVires, post:60, topic:912444, full:true”]But I can still look at some of the ballsy and truly heroic stuff that those guys did [/quote] It doesn’t matter whether you think there were some reasons to admire people who dedicated themselves to an evil cause. Admire them in your heart if you wish. That’s not even close to being a reason to preserve memorials to them in public places of honor. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/199 "2020-07-07T22:53:58Z")
What does that have to do with the insidious concept of political correctness, the destruction of history and language, and 1984 ism? Sure, crack down on sports hooligans as well. I have no problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/200 "2020-07-08T02:56:02Z")
Sorry, based on your post I thought we had moved on from the targeted removal of racist idolatry, to blaming BLM movement for the actions of opportunists who may not be actually associated with them. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall any looting, raping, shooting, burning of buildings, assault and murder when these statues were being torn down. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/201 "2020-07-08T14:31:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > the destruction of history Who’s trying to destroy history? People are trying to teach it. The actual history; not the idealized version I, and possibly you, got handed in grade school. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/202 "2020-07-08T14:40:29Z")
538 has a great data-filled look at the origin of Confederate statues: [Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History | FiveThirtyEight](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/confederate-statues/) To sum up – it was mostly racism. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/203 "2020-07-08T16:39:31Z")
Either crack down on BLM because a minuscule number of people who claim to follow them do destructive things, and also crack down on sports fans because a minuscule number of people who follow sports do destructive things. Or, do not paint everyone in a movement by the actions of the worst of them. Collective judgement and punishment are the favorite tools of authoritarians, you shouldn’t be so glib in suggesting them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444.md?page=11)