# Changing names, removing statues while avoiding 1984-ism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444 "2020-06-23T16:51:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/102 "2020-06-26T16:14:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > The only heroic thing a Confederate soldier could have done would have been blow his own brains out > > Or, you know, desert and join the Union Naah, that’d just be common decency. Heroism requires going above and beyond. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/103 "2020-06-26T16:17:05Z")
It is now being suggested that the national anthem be changed, too. > **[Why it might be time to finally replace 'The Star-Spangled Banner' with a new...](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/why-it-might-be-time-to-replace-the-star-spangled-banner-with-a-new-national-anthem-023741108.html)** > > In an increasingly anti-racist era when problematic iconography is being reassessed or retired, the national anthem seems to be striking a wrong note. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/104 "2020-06-26T16:26:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Naah, that’d just be common decency. Heroism requires going above and beyond. If only we still had like buttons… ![](https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMjVnZzVkMWl4dGpkNGVsazRhZGxiamMzbGY5NzF6a3FxYTRvNWZicyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3o8doT9BL7dgtolp7O/giphy.gif "The Simpsons Kiss GIF by FOX International Channels - Find & Share on GIPHY") ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/105 "2020-06-26T16:29:17Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > If only we still had like buttons… Speaking of, why don’t we? What’s the harm? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/106 "2020-06-26T16:35:26Z")
Because then it turns it into something like Reddit. And then it becomes a popularity contest of who can outvote the other. Side A - gets 90 upvotes/likes Side B - gets 5 upvotes/likes Side A wins! ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/107 "2020-06-26T17:26:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the point, the action, nor the consequence of civil disobedience. I think you’re confusing civil disobedience with vandalism. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/108 "2020-06-26T17:28:36Z")
Vandalizing public structures is pretty disobedient. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/109 "2020-06-26T17:31:44Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I’m not sure Benedict Arnold is a great example. The main reason Benedict Arnold is well known in the public consciousness is because his name has _literally_ become synonymous with “traitor”. Ah, but you have heard of him. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/110 "2020-06-26T17:34:25Z")
It’s been suggested to be changed ever since it accidentally became out anthem anyway. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/111 "2020-06-26T17:37:59Z")
2 major aspects of civil disobedience is that there is no violence against others, and that the people being disobedient accept the legal consequences of their actions. I was responding to the nonsensical notion that it was a “free pass” to “settle some scores”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/112 "2020-06-26T17:39:14Z")
And you know, now that I think of it, I can probably name more confederate generals and leaders than Union, specifically because of all the controversy over naming things after them. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/113 "2020-06-26T19:13:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Ah, but you have heard of him. Yeah, and I’ve heard of Robert E. Lee too. And it wasn’t because of some statue or because my daddy taught me that he was a great man. I absolutely do not think anything significant is going to change in terms of “confederate thinking” because of the removal of confederate statues, but hey, if it makes some people feel better, get rid of them. I’m a yankee that has never spent any significant time in the south and they mean nothing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/114 "2020-06-26T19:16:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because then it turns it into something like Reddit. And then it becomes a popularity contest of who can outvote the other. Does it push comments up or down? If so, that’s a problem. I don’t really care if I “lose.” I do think how many people agree/disagree with me though is an interesting statistic. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/115 "2020-06-26T19:35:41Z")
It does appear to make some people feel better. A lot of some people, in fact. And I bet very few of them believe that it will change a single racist mind if they are taken down. I think what they would like is simply not to have them honored in public spaces. So if you have no objections to that, then what are we talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/116 "2020-06-26T19:46:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So if you have no objections to that, then what are we talking about? In terms of confederate statutes, nothing I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/117 "2020-06-26T21:46:23Z")
I guess I’d prefer to have the statues ‘officially defaced’ rather than removed. Replace the plaques talking about bravery in battle with something along the lines of “In the following civil war battles General Arthur J. Peabody fought for the south, the side which supported slavery and seceding from the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/118 "2020-06-26T21:56:37Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > I guess I’d prefer to have the statues ‘officially defaced’ rather than removed. Why? What makes these people worthy if having statues in their image? Should Germany put up a heroic statue of Hitler, but put up a plaque specifying that he led a genocide that killed millions? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/119 "2020-06-26T22:21:19Z")
Only if, while we are at it, we can put up a 50 foot statue of General Sherman in Atlanta. You know, as long as we are using statues to make people remember their place, and all. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/120 "2020-06-26T22:27:19Z")
No, of course taking down the statues won’t, all by itself, completely solve the problem. But it’s a step in the right direction. Journey of a thousand miles, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/121 "2020-06-27T00:09:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m in favor of making anyone who removes or damages a statue to pay a fine. There is no immunity. Now, there are those who think that they should go to jail for 10 years. I strongly disagree with that. Not going to jail for 10 years for breaking a piece of metal or stone is not the same as immunity. I agree. On the other hand, Donald Trump is doing his best to make me _want_ to grant them immunity. Chickenshit turdsack can’t be arsed to do anything about the killing of blacks going on by our police forces, but he’s quick to jump in to save some _statues_. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t think you know the meaning of the word “heroic”. > > The only heroic thing a Confederate soldier could have done would have been blow his own brains out. Or better yet, blow out his commander’s brains first, then those of his squad, and _then_ his own. Nonsense. Heroism can be seen in a lot of ways, a lot of actions. I grant that the actions were ultimately in service to breaking the Union to retain slavery, and as such do not merit honoring on the city square, but the motivations and actions at the personal level could be measured as heroic. > [@Ashtura](#): > > That didn’t happen in the South. Maybe it should have, but it didn’t. We coddled. So we are now several generations past that that aren’t literally confederates, but still hold on to some of the legacy of confederacy. You can forcibly tear down all the statues you want, ban flags at NASCAR, whatever. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that some statues or a confederate flags been the main driving force of people maintaining a mindset we don’t like. IMO. Symptom perhaps, not cause. That’s just hiding the symptoms. You are correct that the statues and flags are merely symptoms of the problem. The problem is the attitudes that honor and praise the South. However, one way to begin to address the problem is to counter the notion that waving the flags and displaying the statues is acceptable. They’re not to be honored and praised. > [@ThisIsTheEnd](#): > > I think you’re confusing civil disobedience with vandalism. Vandalism can be a form of civil disobedience. Admittedly, it fuzzies up the “civil” part. > [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > I guess I’d prefer to have the statues ‘officially defaced’ rather than removed. Replace the plaques talking about bravery in battle with something along the lines of “In the following civil war battles General Arthur J. Peabody fought for the south, the side which supported slavery and seceding from the United States.” As far as placement in a museum or battlefield, that might be appropriate. But not leaving them around the town square and outside the courthouse. Remember, they were put up to show Blacks they would always be second class citizens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444.md?page=7)