# Changing names, removing statues while avoiding 1984-ism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444 "2020-06-23T16:51:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/163 "2020-07-01T01:00:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > …The animals running wild … Nice, very nice… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/164 "2020-07-01T01:16:18Z")
“Peaceful protestors” should be another phrase that Merriam Webster tackles as the self appointed Ministry of Truth. Perhaps in the 2021 edition of newspeak the definition of “peaceful protestors” can read as “rapist, arsonist, looter engaged in unplanned sex, unplanned donation and unplanned combustion for the purpose of political intimidation.” The disingenuous spin about the violent protests and riots, the Marxist BLM organization, and the support for violent mob action to destroy property and silence people via physical violence to property and person is easily contradicted by just watching the television or going to a democrat run city and seeing the destruction. It was predicted by many that the anarchists and Marxists weren’t going to be satisfied with the most egregious statues. It was predicted by many that there was no appeasing a mob. And now that statues of abolitionists, non confederates, and just random folks are being smashed and vandalized the mob is still being defended. When did classical liberal thought become replaced with fascism? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/165 "2020-07-01T01:51:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The animals running wild Well that explains why you’re such a big fan of Confederate statues! I’m sure Jefferson Davis, Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and all the other Confederate shitstains on our society would agree with you there. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/166 "2020-07-01T01:56:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So, my proposal is for every statue that the mob tears down the state puts up two more. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue! That’s the Chicago way. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/167 "2020-07-01T02:07:05Z")
What are you even talking about? What’s with the personal attack? Again, you are making the ridiculous yet exceedingly common assumption that support for liberty and due process is the same as advocating a particular form of expression. It’s unbelievable that that simple concept needs explaining. Rioting, raping, looting, murder, arson and other unprosecuted felonies are uncivilized behaviors and no statue, hat, or actual peaceful expression is sufficient to legitimize that political and opportunistic violence. It’s weird that condemning uncivilized, mob violence is a greater sin in modern America than the actual mob violence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/168 "2020-07-01T02:11:15Z")
Life, liberty, and the right to treat people who aren’t like you as if they were animals. That’s the American way![quote=“octopus, post:167, topic:912444”] Again, you are making the ridiculous yet exceedingly common assumption that support for liberty and due process is the same as advocating a particular form of expression [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/169 "2020-07-01T02:44:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The disingenuous spin about the violent protests and riots, the Marxist BLM organization, and the support for violent mob action to destroy property and silence people via physical violence to property and person is easily contradicted by just watching the television or going to a democrat run city and seeing the destruction. It’s only confirmed if you watch Fox News on ‘the television’, and Fox News has stated in court under oath that they do not publish the truth and do not believe they should. For example, here’s a plethora of examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMkCQT3wpE4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMkCQT3wpE4) Here’s one where a police chief admits that his force attacked a medical station (that is, people that weren’t even protesting, much less violently): [Asheville Police Chief Zack apologizes for medic tent destruction](https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2020/06/04/asheville-police-chief-zack-apologizes-medic-tent-destruction/3148766001/) Here’s an attack against people on their own property: ['Light 'Em Up!': Video Appears To Show Law Enforcement Shooting Paint Rounds At Mpls. Residents On Their Porch - CBS Minnesota](https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/light-em-up-video-appears-to-show-law-enforcement-shooting-paint-rounds-at-citizens-on-their-porch/) Here’s some attacks on legal observers: > **[City Bar Calls For Investigation Following Arrests of Legal Observers During...](https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2020/06/17/city-bar-calls-for-investigation-following-arrests-of-legal-observers-during-bronx-protests/?slreturn=20240120152952)** > > In a statement, the City Bar said it was gravely concerned by what it called concerted efforts in New York, and across the country, to interfere with the work of observers at mass demonstrations protesting systemic racism and police killings of black... > **[‘Who polices the police?’: Legal observer says Sacramento police fired...](https://fox40.com/news/local-news/who-polices-the-police-legal-observer-says-sacramento-police-fired-projectile-at-his-face-during-protest/)** > > SACRAMENTO, Calif. (KTXL) — A legal observer was recovering from extensive bruising and a concussion Tuesday after he said police fired some sort of projectile at his face during Saturday nig… > **[Shot in face at Sacramento protest, legal observer demands criminal charges...](https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article243876432.html)** > > The man is calling for charges of assault with a deadly weapon filed against the officer or officers who shot him. And journalists: > **[We Crunched the Numbers: Police — Not Protesters — Are Overwhelmingly...](https://theintercept.com/2020/06/04/journalists-attacked-police-george-floyd-protests/)** > > Amid the protests over the killing of George Floyd, it is the police — not protesters — that are responsible for attacks on journalists. > **[Blinded, arrested: Police attack journalists covering US protests](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/6/16/blinded-arrested-police-attack-journalists-covering-us-protests)** > > Watchdog receives over 400 reports of press freedom violations during recent wave of protests against police brutality. > **[U.S. police have attacked journalists at least 140 times since May 28](https://www.niemanlab.org/2020/06/well-try-to-help-you-follow-the-police-attacks-on-journalists-across-the-country/)** > > "Although in some incidents it is possible the journalists were hit or affected accidentally, in the majority of the cases we have recorded the journalists are clearly identifiable as press, and it is clear that they are being deliberately targeted." There’s a reason that Scotland voted to stop exporting tear gas, riot gear, and rubber bullets to the US. > [@](#): > > When did classical liberal thought become replaced with fascism? Your habit of calling people who oppose the glorification of white supremacy and try to topple monuments to giving slaveowners the right to rape, torture, kill, and exploit black people ‘fascists’ and ‘brownshirts’ is a bizarre perversion of history. The people with paramilitary forces in the street using chemical weapons against peaceful protesters, journalists, and legal observers are the ones more aptly compared to the Nazis in any reasonable book. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/170 "2020-07-01T02:51:01Z")
Just because the violent mob has some peaceful folk doesn’t mean that the violent mob isn’t tearing stuff down, shooting folks, burning buildings, looting, etc. and are you seriously claiming that the only source for that is Fox News? Seriously? Secondly, the statues aren’t hurting anybody. Except that one statue that fell on on someone’s head after it got toppled. But that’s a rare exception. What is hurting people is the left’s implicit and explicit support of lawlessness to enact political change and to silence dissent. Robespierre would be proud. Once political violence is legitimized how do you put the genie back in the bottle? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/171 "2020-07-01T03:43:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Once political violence is legitimized how do you put the genie back in the bottle? [How, indeed.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49244322) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/172 "2020-07-01T03:52:12Z")
> Just because the violent mob has some peaceful folk … Of course, it is important to note here that in reality most of the protesters are peaceful, some (and some of they are right-wingers) are using violence. As explained many times before, that is not condoned. That “approval” coming from the democrats or many on the left is a lie from sources like FOX News, right wing radio and internet social media guys that need to be unfriended ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/173 "2020-07-01T12:20:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What is hurting people is the left’s implicit and explicit support of lawlessness to enact political change and to silence dissent. Robespierre would be proud. > > Once political violence is legitimized how do you put the genie back in the bottle? What’s hurting far more people (and doing far more to legitimize political violence) is the right trying to hurt people. Whether it’s the president using brutality to disperse a peaceful crowd for a photo op, or a local police department targeting protesters and journalists with violence, or random right wing idiots shooting or brandishing weapons at peaceful protesters, the right has been targeting humans for brutality far, far more than left wing protesters. Your posts really are the epitome of what MLK Jr called his disappointment with the white moderate who valued tranquility over justice. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/174 "2020-07-01T12:56:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your posts really are the epitome of what MLK Jr called his disappointment with the white moderate who valued tranquility over justice. Did MLK’s “white moderate” call MLK and his followers “animals”? Because Octopus certainly would. He’s no moderate, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/175 "2020-07-01T18:14:57Z")
That’s irrelevant to this thread. It’s like that failed pipe bomb analogy. The analogy failed precisely because that violence wasn’t explicitly condoned by political leaders. That violence was successfully prosecuted. That’s the difference. We don’t have the media excusing the pipe bomb, we don’t have corporations virtue signaling to curry favor from the pipe bomber, and we don’t have local and state leaders turning a blind eye to the pipe bomber. None of that is true with regards to large scale destruction and violence which is currently happening for the purposes of political intimidation and to enact radical ideological change. With the destruction of non confederate statues I think avoiding the 1984ism is too late. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/176 "2020-07-01T18:20:56Z")
I’m not a moderate. 😉 And I have nothing but respect for MLK and his followers. I have a problem with rabid so-called ‘peaceful’ ‘protestors’ who are nothing more in many cases than opportunistic looters, arsonists, and thugs. In a functioning democracy there is no place for wholesale destruction of property, assault and murder, and political intimidation. Why are you more offended by the criticism of mob rule than mob rule itself? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/177 "2020-07-01T18:30:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > We don’t have the media excusing the pipe bomb, we don’t have corporations virtue signaling to curry favor from the pipe bomber, and we don’t have local and state leaders turning a blind eye to the pipe bomber. [That nut is but a symptom of a larger problem.](https://americasvoice.org/trumphatemap/) Forest, trees, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/178 "2020-07-01T20:34:25Z")
Ah, so now people who aren’t Like You™ are “rabid”! Next you’ll tell us they need to be “put down”? ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/179 "2020-07-01T20:38:26Z")
Republicans were pretty damn supportive of the Bundys. What was they did again? Oh, yeah… armed takeover of a government facility, destruction of property… Oddly, that stuff was okay back then. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/180 "2020-07-01T20:45:20Z")
More recently… [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-01/armed-us-protesters-seek-end-to-coronavirus-restrictions/12205586](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-01/armed-us-protesters-seek-end-to-coronavirus-restrictions/12205586) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/181 "2020-07-01T20:55:55Z")
Not to mention a pair of paranoid racists in St. Louis, being defended by equally racist MAGAbots on social media. > **[St. Louis lawyers who confronted protesters with guns under investigation](https://nypost.com/2020/06/30/st-louis-lawyers-who-waved-guns-at-protesters-under-investigation/)** > > The St. Louis lawyers who pulled weapons on protesters marching past their home are being investigated for possible criminal charges, the city’s lead prosecutor has revealed. Mark and Patrici… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444/182 "2020-07-01T21:58:49Z")
That has nothing to do with the rabid mobs tearing down statues which originally were supposed to be limited to the most egregious members of the Confederacy but now has expanded to be practically any random statue. There is nothing paranoid or ‘racist’ about defending one’s private property when the state has abandoned that responsibility because of cynical political calculations from amoral leftist politicians. Of course those in favor of mob violence as a legitimate form of political change are trying desperately reframe the facts using the left’s slander of the day of “racist!!1!” as a means of provoking an irrational yet carefully conditioned Pavlovian response. The St. Louis situation is also further evidence of the explicit support of lawlessness and political intimidation as long as it furthers the interests of the left. When self defense is demonized and vandalism, menacing, trespassing, arson, looting, rape, murder etc. are euphemistically referred to as “peaceful protests” you know that we are living what Orwell warned about in 1984 and Animal Farm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-names-removing-statues-while-avoiding-1984-ism/912444.md?page=10)