# Changing popularity of first names (baby names) over the years **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492 "2010-10-17T23:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/21 "2010-10-18T20:55:40Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s definitely the case in the US as well - I’ve always assumed it was a combination of elements. Boys are more likely to be named after a relative, for example. Girls are seen as less likely to need a “serious” name - “Ladies and Gentlemen, the President of the United States, Holly Christmas!” Girls in general, one could argue, have been seen more as pet-like and so people name them things they’d name a Yorkie. You also see a greater tendency, in English at least, for girls’ names to have meaning as a word, such as virtues (Faith, Hope, Charity, Prudence, etc.) or flowers (Rose, Lily, Daisy, etc.). And then there’s also the pattern that a male name can be adapted to a female name (John to Joan or Jane, Robert to Roberta, Francis to Frances, etc), but it’s extremely rare for a female name to be adapted to a male name (I think Mario might come from Mary, but that’s about it). ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/22 "2010-10-18T21:30:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oddly enough, I’ve found that parents tend to be more creative with girls’ names than with boys; perhaps that’s due to the relative dearth of positive biblical female role models. That’s common in the USA, too, and I’d hazard to guess most of the Western world, at least, although I don’t think it has anything to do with lack of female role models. I think that parents are more likely to regard baby girls as being like dolls, and give them fanciful or made-up names, as opposed to baby boys, who are expected to “carry on the family” and therefore are given weightier, more respectable names. Can you tell I hate this trend? I’ve worked a LOT with kids and seen plenty of families where the girls are named things like Starla while their brothers are named William and Jacob. As for female-into-male, there’s a touch of misogyny in that, too, where traditionally male names like Taylor and Morgan slowly become more associated with females, and people stop giving the names to their sons because they don’t ‘want him to have a girl’s name’. While a girl can have a boy’s name, the reverse isn’t true. This happened to lots of names: Marion, Meredith, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/23 "2010-10-18T21:45:14Z")
> [@falcotron](#): > > I think that’s true in most cultures (although not all–I vaguely remember reading that the Romans apparently had 3x as many male names as female, and they changed much more over time). The Romans had a naming system that was pretty alien to us. In Republic-era Rome, girls weren’t usually given unique names at all, but feminized versions of their father’s _nomen_ (clan name). Gaius Julius Caesar’s nomen was Julius, therefore his daughter was Julia. Two daughters might be called Julia Major and Julia Minor. Additional daughters would be distinguished with numerals, like so: Julia Secunda (Daughter #2) Julia Tertia (Daughter #3) Julia Quarta (Daughter #4) Julia Quinta (Daughter #5) Subsequent daughters would follow suit, although in all honesty the Romans were prone to exposing baby girls to die (too many daughters were a hassle to raise and marry off) so I doubt many families ever got so far as Daughter #7 and Daughter #8. Actually, the Chinese did something similar up until fairly recently, so there were families with daughters named things like First Daughter and Second Daughter or even Hoping For A Baby Brother. By the late Republic period this had begun to break down, and by the time of the Imperial period women were often given unique names. Not that men got off a lot better, as there were a limited number of _praenomen_ (given names) in use at any time, and several of them were used only by one family (such as Appius, which was only used by the Claudians). The most common were: Marcus Gaius Publius Quintus Lucius If you went back in time to Republic Rome, about every man you met would likely be named one of these. Thered be a handful of others, such as Postumius (born after his father’s death) and Numerius and such, but nothing like the variety we see today. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/24 "2010-10-18T21:51:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > (I think Mario might come from Mary, but that’s about it). I’m pretty sure it comes from the Marius, just like all other Spanish “-io” names - Julio from Julius, Antonio from Antonius, Claudio from Claudius, etc. They aren’t called “Latin” for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/25 "2010-10-18T23:41:42Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > That’s common in the USA, too, and I’d hazard to guess most of the Western world, at least, although I don’t think it has anything to do with lack of female role models. I think that parents are more likely to regard baby girls as being like dolls, and give them fanciful or made-up names, as opposed to baby boys, who are expected to “carry on the family” and therefore are given weightier, more respectable names. Can you tell I hate this trend? I’ve worked a LOT with kids and seen plenty of families where the girls are named things like Starla while their brothers are named William and Jacob. I read a study on names online years back, and I wish I could find it again. Anyway, it concluded that children with unusual names are perceived more negatively than children with more common names, but this affected boys more drastically than girls. IIRC, they gave teachers a set bunch of papers to mark for kids they’d never met, and for each teacher they put a different name on the top of each paper. Papers marked with unusual names got lower grades. Anyway, it would seem that society at large expects boys to have more conventional names and is more tolerant of slightly unusual names in girls. ---
**Author:** ![falcotron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@falcotron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/falcotron)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/26 "2010-10-19T01:02:23Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > In Republic-era Rome… I think I was reading up more on late Republic/early Empire era, because I was probably inspired to look up names by something from some quasi-historical fiction, and that’s when most of it takes place (Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar, Raimi’s Spartacus, Jesus’s Bible, Doctor Who’s Nero…). Which is a shame, because I’m sure there was a good George Foreman joke in there. Anyway, I’m curious how Romans told each other apart without confusion. I suppose they didn’t talk about women very much, but even for men, if you’ve got the same given name as 20% of your town, come from the same clan name as 20% of the people in your social class, and… I forget what the third kind of name is, but they couldn’t have been too much more varied… so how did this work once towns got big enough? Did I have to say “Gaius Claudius, the aqueduct guy, the one on the east side of town, who married Publius Julius’s daughter, I mean the guy who keeps the tax records not the other Publius Julius whose daughter married the other Gaius Claudius, um… look, let’s go to his house and I’ll point”? Or was there something more systematic? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/27 "2010-10-19T03:10:21Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Continuing on the subject of Quebec, some names come out of nowhere and top the charts, such as English names like William or Mégane, or invented names like Océane. One of these new names I just can’t get over is Mathis (#3 among boys in the 2005-09 period, but basically unknown earlier than 10 years ago). I just despise this now-omnipresent name. In fact, if I ever have a son (an unlikely proposition), I’d be thinking hard about naming him _Mathias_, which is a “real” name with a long tradition even though it’s quite old-fashioned now, and in my mind what Mathis is “supposed” to be. ---
**Author:** ![falcotron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@falcotron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/falcotron)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/28 "2010-10-19T08:31:57Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > One of these new names I just can’t get over is Mathis (#3 among boys in the 2005-09 period, but basically unknown earlier than 10 years ago). I just despise this now-omnipresent name. In fact, if I ever have a son (an unlikely proposition), I’d be thinking hard about naming him _Mathias_, which is a “real” name with a long tradition even though it’s quite old-fashioned now, and in my mind what Mathis is “supposed” to be. Is it possible that this is one of those last-name-to-first-name things, rather than a misspelling-an-old-first-name thing? It’s a pretty common last name for Brits, Americans, Canadians, etc. of German ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/29 "2010-10-19T11:06:18Z")
Great replies. Thanks! To this point, no one’s talked about names adopted by immigrants to English-speaking countries. More specifically, I have been struck by the seemingly common practice of immigrants from Hong Kong and China to assume rather archaic, old-fashioned English names. Many sound like characters from a Dickens novel, and some almost Shakesperian. Off the top of my head, I can remember a Cecil, Kester, Horace, Ambrose, Jasper, Clarence, Elmer, and Roscoe among my former male students of Chinese ethnicity and Clementine, Clarwyn, Mabel, and Iris among the women (in fact, especially among the women, I’m _sure_ there are many more such anachronistic names that I’m simply forgetting). Has anyone else noticed this? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/30 "2010-10-19T15:34:38Z")
> [@falcotron](#): > > Is it possible that this is one of those last-name-to-first-name things, rather than a misspelling-an-old-first-name thing? It’s a pretty common last name for Brits, Americans, Canadians, etc. of German ancestry. I’ve never heard Mathis used as a last name. Well, there’s painter Henri Matisse, but I don’t remember his popularity suddenly increasing 10 years ago. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > To this point, no one’s talked about names adopted by immigrants to English-speaking countries. More specifically, I have been struck by the seemingly common practice of immigrants from Hong Kong and China to assume rather archaic, old-fashioned English names. In some cases, could it be because they adopt names that sound like their Chinese name? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/31 "2010-10-19T15:40:00Z")
The time-sucking [Sporcle](http://www.sporcle.com/) has a ton of games on [baby names](http://www.sporcle.com/games/tags/babynames). ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/32 "2010-10-19T16:54:58Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’ve never heard Mathis used as a last name. Well, there’s painter Henri Matisse, but I don’t remember his popularity suddenly increasing 10 years ago. > In some cases, could it be because they adopt names that sound like their Chinese name? Johnny Mathis? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/33 "2010-10-19T17:19:03Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’ve never heard Mathis used as a last name. Well, there’s painter Henri Matisse, but I don’t remember his popularity suddenly increasing 10 years ago. It’s reasonably common in the U.S. Within the top 500 last names. I have a co-worker with that last name. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/34 "2010-10-19T20:07:03Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Great replies. Thanks! > > To this point, no one’s talked about names adopted by immigrants to English-speaking countries. More specifically, I have been struck by the seemingly common practice of immigrants from Hong Kong and China to assume rather archaic, old-fashioned English names. Many sound like characters from a Dickens novel, and some almost Shakesperian. > > Off the top of my head, I can remember a Cecil, Kester, Horace, Ambrose, Jasper, Clarence, Elmer, and Roscoe among my former male students of Chinese ethnicity and Clementine, Clarwyn, Mabel, and Iris among the women (in fact, especially among the women, I’m _sure_ there are many more such anachronistic names that I’m simply forgetting). > > Has anyone else noticed this? Oh, absolutely. I don’t know why it is, but I definitely see it all the time, primarily among the children of Chinese immigrants (haven’t noticed it with other Asian groups.) ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/35 "2010-10-19T22:02:53Z")
> [@falcotron](#): > > Anyway, I’m curious how Romans told each other apart without confusion. WAG: nicknames. In college my peer group had a huge number of "John"s in it, so we all had nicknames - Magic John (played Magic the Gathering), Military John (wore camouflage patterns a lot), Turtle John (had a pet turtle), Physics John (physics major), Skip (named after his dog), JAM (initials), JC (initials), that’s just off the top of my head. We ended up doing a parody of the KITH song “These are the Daves I know”. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/36 "2010-10-19T22:06:28Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Johnny Mathis? [This person](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Mathis)? Can’t say I’ve ever heard of him. > [@suranyi](#): > > It’s reasonably common in the U.S. Within the top 500 last names. I have a co-worker with that last name. Fair enough. But is it ever used as a first name in the US? I don’t see it having gone straight from American last name to Quebec first name without any intermediate step. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/37 "2010-10-19T22:24:23Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > [This person](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Mathis)? Can’t say I’ve ever heard of him. It’s funny how cultures can be so close, yet so far apart. Among a certain segment of America, Johnny Mathis is one of the most popular singers of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/38 "2010-10-20T00:31:09Z")
Yeah, anybody who’s never heard of Johnny Mathis must not have any aunts. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/39 "2010-10-20T03:14:43Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > It’s funny how cultures can be so close, yet so far apart. Among a certain segment of America, Johnny Mathis is one of the most popular singers of all time. To be fair, he’s probably more popular among an older crowd (and I see **Zsofia** confirms). But honestly I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492/40 "2010-10-20T06:00:59Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > WAG: nicknames. In college my peer group had a huge number of "John"s in it, so we all had nicknames - Magic John (played Magic the Gathering), Military John (wore camouflage patterns a lot), Turtle John (had a pet turtle), Physics John (physics major), Skip (named after his dog), JAM (initials), JC (initials), that’s just off the top of my head. We ended up doing a parody of the KITH song “These are the Daves I know”. Wasn’t “Caesar” orignally a nickname? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-popularity-of-first-names-baby-names-over-the-years/557492.md?page=1)