# Changing your mind the night after sex = rape (Does this ever happen?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082 "2008-11-10T18:54:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/81 "2008-11-12T10:07:07Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Do I feel sorry for people who complain about the possibility that something horrible might happen to them, particularly when the odds of that horrible thing can be reduced by taking reasonable precautions? Not really, no. So a woman who wears a string bikini to a midnight gathering of drunk and horny Hell’s Angels and then gets raped won’t be able to count on any sympathy from you, I guess. Damn. That’s pretty harsh. I’m glad that I have human compassion. It works for me. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/82 "2008-11-12T10:52:43Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > When it comes to situations where a woman willingly consents to sex then changes her mind the next morning and makes a rape accusation, I think we’re dealing with two general types of cases. First are ones where the woman didn’t actually consent… [snip] …and [second,] cases where there’s some horrible misunderstanding between the two people as to what constitutes consent. You think those are the two “general types of cases” we’re dealing with here? Just those two? Aren’t you forgetting a THIRD case-- the “case” that is apparently far more likely (40% - 60% of cases) than either of the two scenarios you suggested? You know, the one where the pretend “victim” tells a vicious, criminal lie that could send someone to prison for 20 years? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/83 "2008-11-12T16:05:57Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I’ve never met a rapist. So I guess rape really isn’t much of a problem at all. I wonder why so many people make such a fuss over it. You’re right, it was silly of me to equate the two. As has been mentioned, I’m sure falsely accused men and falsely accusing women aren’t open with their pasts– though, honestly, I sometimes wonder if there are any secrets left. I meant more that all of my experience has been with women who’ve been raped or assaulted, and not a single one has seen her assailant brought to justice (not that all of them pursued it). But I think it would be utterly misguided to assume that women who drop their cases (or don’t even go to the police) are more likely to be lying in the first place. Perhaps one needs to have a vendetta to even make it through the criminal justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/84 "2008-11-12T16:16:42Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I think it’s funny that you are calling for me to provide evidence for my claim that some men sometimes get involved with women they have no good reason to trust, but provide no citation to support your claim that a woman’s word is all it takes to get a man convicted of rape. That is not how the American legal system works. It’s not at all easy to get a rape conviction. If you need cites I can provide, but in the interests of time I’ll offer a “my post is my cite” response to this issue. Technically, legally, the statement is correct: a woman’s word is all that is legally necessary to convict a man of rape. As long as she testifies to each and every element of the crime, the finder of fact is entitled to believe her testimony and disbelieve any contrary denials from the accused. Practically, of course, the vast majority of rape prosecutors would want to be able to offer more than a bare unsupported word, because the defense would be free to argue consent, or even that the act itself never happened, and characterize it as “he said, she said” and most juries would be reluctant to convict on such evidence. But again – “reluctant” is not “impossible” or “illegal.” As a practical matter, in the vast majority of cases, more is needed, but that’s a practical bar, not a legal one. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/85 "2008-11-12T16:30:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you need cites I can provide, but in the interests of time I’ll offer a “my post is my cite” response to this issue. > > Technically, legally, the statement is correct: a woman’s word is all that is legally necessary to convict a man of rape. As long as she testifies to each and every element of the crime, the finder of fact is entitled to believe her testimony and disbelieve any contrary denials from the accused. > > Practically, of course, the vast majority of rape prosecutors would want to be able to offer more than a bare unsupported word, because the defense would be free to argue consent, or even that the act itself never happened, and characterize it as “he said, she said” and most juries would be reluctant to convict on such evidence. > > But again – “reluctant” is not “impossible” or “illegal.” As a practical matter, in the vast majority of cases, more is needed, but that’s a practical bar, not a legal one. In any event, being falsely accused of a serious crime is a brutally miserable experience. If the charges are publicized, a lot of people will assume that you are guilty. You may have to spend money on legal fees, money which you will likely never get back. Not to mention the time spent worrying. The obvious example of this is the Duke Lacrosse case, in which the defendants were obviously innocent, and yet they were prosecuted for the better part of a year. Even after the state attorney general declared them innocent, there were people who would not accept it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/86 "2008-11-12T18:19:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Again, I think it’s a terrible thing for anyone to be falsely accused of a crime they did not commit, but I also think there are plenty of men who worry about this because they are creeps. For those who aren’t creeps but are just worried that they can’t have casual sex with total Age of Aquarius type freedom and no possibility of negative social repercussions, well, that’s what it’s been like for women since the dawn of civilization. Cry me a river. Huh? Fear of being falsely accused of rape means one is either a potential rapist or a _Penthouse Forum_ fantasist? Where do the other possibilities, mentioned in the Purdue/FBI study, come into play? Because I happen to know, or even walk by, an unbalanced or vengeful woman I should not be concerned about the possibility that she might accuse me of rape, dragging my good name through the mud and costing me thousands of dollars even if I’m proved innocent? ---
**Author:** ![erleichda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4da419/32.png) [@erleichda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erleichda)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/87 "2008-11-12T18:29:19Z")
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**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/88 "2008-11-12T18:42:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > In any event, being falsely accused of a serious crime is a brutally miserable experience. If the charges are publicized, a lot of people will assume that you are guilty. You may have to spend money on legal fees, money which you will likely never get back. Not to mention the time spent worrying. The obvious example of this is the Duke Lacrosse case, in which the defendants were obviously innocent, and yet they were prosecuted for the better part of a year. Even after the state attorney general declared them innocent, there were people who would not accept it. And still are, or who maintain that the accusation was a Good Thing, because It Will Teach Men A Lesson. Earlier this year I was casting my eyes idly over a tabloid agony column to see a letter from a woman whose intended had been charged with rape, and the columnist’s answer didn’t include even a nod in the direction of “innocent until proven guilty”, instead claiming that “charges are brought only when there is very strong evidence”. I guess that explains why the conviction rate at trial is so low - because the general public are so determined to exculpate rapists that they ignore “very strong evidence” in thirteen trials out of fourteen. At any rate, Dear Deidre was all for dropping the accused like a bad habit before one word of the evidence had even been heard, let alone a defence offered. Disgraceful. :mad: I wonder how many people, if they absolutely had to choose, would rather be cut off from family, friends, employment, perhaps lose their home, all the other consequences of a false rape accusation; or be made to have sex when they didn’t really want to. In the spirit of “And another thing”, whenever a false rape conviction does hit the headlines, you can bet that, as surely as night follows day, you will hear about what an evil thing this is _because it will render it less likely that reports of real rape will be believed._ Eh, the suffering of the victim of the actual crime is of small account, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/89 "2008-11-12T19:49:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I wonder how many people, if they absolutely had to choose, would rather be cut off from family, friends, employment, perhaps lose their home, all the other consequences of a false rape accusation; or be made to have sex when they didn’t really want to. I think they’re both awful, horrendous things, and both are violations of a different sort, but come on, I think rape is a little worse than “be made to have sex when you don’t really want to.” I think you’re downplaying it just a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/90 "2008-11-12T20:03:11Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > or the 3rd case where a lucid woman consents to sex and _in the morning_ changes her mind, I’m sure you meant to include that I actually did include it, that was my intended second case. But looking at my post again I see failed to make this clear – I didn’t number the second case and I went off on a tangential point in the middle. Both you and **I Love Me, Vol. I** took what I intended as subsets of the first case (1a and 1b) to be the two separate cases. I apologize for my sloppy writing. I intended Case 1 (“woman did not really consent”) to include both actual rapes (1a) and horrible misunderstandings (1b). The last paragraph of my post was supposed to be about Case 2, actual next-morning regrets. That was what I was referring to with “It’s a very small percentage of people who think that the correct response to making a personal mistake is to file a police report against anyone else involved. … Women who do this are lone nuts acting independently, not part of some organized conspiracy against men.” I don’t think there a lot of women like this but I’m sure they do exist, and I apologize again for my bad writing. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > So a woman who wears a string bikini to a midnight gathering of drunk and horny Hell’s Angels and then gets raped won’t be able to count on any sympathy from you, I guess. No, what I said was I didn’t have sympathy for people who say they’re really worried about bad things that might happen yet are unwilling to take any precautions against them. I thought I had managed to be clear on this point, but I was referring to people that nothing bad had happened to (yet) but who were worried about bad things that might happen. To use your example, if a woman says “I’m really afraid of getting raped, but I’m not going to stop going to midnight gatherings of drunk and horny Hell’s Angels in my string bikini” then no, I can’t say I feel all that sorry for her. She still wouldn’t _deserve_ to be raped, but I’m afraid my heart isn’t big enough to feel sorry for someone that irresponsible. I also do not feel sorry for any man who says he’s really afraid of being falsely accused of rape, but considers it too much trouble to exercise care in selecting his sexual partners or be sure that he has their consent. > [@dropzone](#): > > Because I happen to know, or even walk by, an unbalanced or vengeful woman I should not be concerned about the possibility that she might accuse me of rape, dragging my good name through the mud and costing me thousands of dollars even if I’m proved innocent? Is this something that keeps you up at night? I can understand that any man might think of such a thing now and then, but if you spend a lot of time worrying that someday some woman is going to falsely accuse you of rape then yes, I think you have issues. > [@Bricker](#): > > Technically, legally, the statement is correct: a woman’s word is all that is legally necessary to convict a man of rape. As long as she testifies to each and every element of the crime, the finder of fact is entitled to believe her testimony and disbelieve any contrary denials from the accused. > > Practically, of course, the vast majority of rape prosecutors would want to be able to offer more than a bare unsupported word, because the defense would be free to argue consent, or even that the act itself never happened, and characterize it as “he said, she said” and most juries would be reluctant to convict on such evidence. Thanks for the info, **Bricker**. I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/91 "2008-11-12T20:29:09Z")
Fair enough **Lamia** I can only say that the overall tone of your postings suggestged that to me. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/92 "2008-11-12T20:31:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > To use your example, if a woman says “I’m really afraid of getting raped, but I’m not going to stop going to midnight gatherings of drunk and horny Hell’s Angels in my string bikini” then no, I can’t say I feel all that sorry for her. She still wouldn’t deserve to be raped, but I’m afraid my heart isn’t big enough to feel sorry for someone that irresponsible. I also do not feel sorry for any man who says he’s really afraid of being falsely accused of rape, but considers it too much trouble to exercise care in selecting his sexual partners or be sure that he has their consent. And I ask again, because you never answered me the first time: how do you propose that a man can be sure – and PROVE – his partner has given consent? The whole point of the OP, which you seem to be ignoring, is that a woman can say “yes, yes, yes” and in the morning say “no, no, no” and at that point, the man is up a creek and she faces no repercusions at all. You seem to feel there’s some magical litmus test the man can apply to the woman that will tell him, “Oh, she’s going to lie about this in the morning and screw up my life. I should not have sex with her.” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/93 "2008-11-12T21:07:48Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I wonder how many people, if they absolutely had to choose, would rather be cut off from family, friends, employment, perhaps lose their home, all the other consequences of a false rape accusation; or be made to have sex when they didn’t really want to. You think rape doesn’t ruin families and friendships? That raped women don’t have some relationship issues? That potential lovers or boyfriends don’t sometimes cut and run because they don’t want to deal with someone’s drama? That friends won’t accuse a woman of lying about being raped by someone from their social circle? That parents won’t encourage their daughter to keep quiet about being raped by a family member? Come off it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/94 "2008-11-12T21:12:40Z")
It occurred to me today that I actually did know someone who later made a false rape accusation against a guy she’d had consensual sex with. I’d forgotten about this because it happened years and years ago, the woman was someone I’d been in elementary school with and hadn’t seen since, and I only heard the story secondhand. It isn’t a case of “next morning regrets”, but I think it’s close enough to what the OP was looking for. A little backstory: “Theresa” was a friend of my friend “Susan” in elementary school. Susan and I continued on to the public middle school, but Theresa went on to the local private Catholic school. I then moved away and never saw Theresa again. But I remained in touch with Susan, and when we were about 17 she told me the following story on the phone. Theresa was caught having sex with a black classmate (his race will be important later) in the school library. She initially claimed that he had raped her, but her story soon fell apart. What had actually happened was that Theresa had in the years since I’d known her developed a drug problem and had made an agreement with this guy to exchange sex for pills. I don’t know any more details than that, and I never heard what happened to either of them afterward. I don’t know how long it took for Theresa to admit the truth. Susan didn’t mention the police being involved, but they may have been. Theresa’s motivations for lying are obvious enough: she was trying to cover her own ass. Aside from whatever punishment she’d have faced for having sex in the school library, her parents were also very strict and her father in particular was both overbearing and openly racist. I remember young Theresa saying quite casually that the reason she was changing to the private school was because her father didn’t want her at the public middle school where there were “too many black people”. I suspect her parents would have been angry that Theresa was having pre-martial sex at all, and her father would definitely have been angry that she was getting it on with a black guy. So Theresa tried to throw the guy under the bus to protect herself. She’d be the innocent victim, not the pill-popping slut. I suspect everyone’s first reaction to this story is the same as mine when I heard it: “Wow, what a _bitch_.” The guy involved absolutely did not deserve to be accused of rape, and Theresa’s decision to tell that lie about him was 100% HER fault. But if he’d exercised better judgment, as I’ve repeatedly suggested here, he could easily have avoided the whole ugly situation. He could have stopped and said to himself, “Maybe it’s not really such a good idea for me, a young black man living in the South, to have sex with a white girl with a racist father right here in the school library, especially since she is only agreeing to have sex with me because she’s a pill-popper who needs a fix.” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/95 "2008-11-12T21:15:31Z")
For perspective, a woman who wears a bikini into a Hell’s Angels biker bar only has to survive the night; if her risky behavior backfires she could be raped and suffer a lifetime of emotional trauma. A man who has sex with a woman has _twenty years_ (or the applicable statute of limitations) to hope that the woman doesn’t go psycho on him; if his risky behavior backfires, he can lose his freedom and his career and all his friends, thousands of dollars in legal defense, _and_ suffer a lifetime of emotional trauma. Risk for the criminal rapist: imprisonment. Risk for the criminal false accuser: virtually nil. Is this equitable? In my view, two things must happen. Since “spite and revenge” are the motivators for false accusation, remove the enticement to cause harm with a false accusation. The alleged perpetrator’s name is never revealed unless he is convicted; and a false accusation stays on the perpetrator’s permanent record in the event of a background check — possibly she has to register as a sex offender, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/96 "2008-11-12T21:16:55Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I think they’re both awful, horrendous things, and both are violations of a different sort, but come on, I think rape is a little worse than “be made to have sex when you don’t really want to.” I think you’re downplaying it just a bit. Not at all. I didn’t say “All rape is defined by Case B as I just stated it” but rather “Case B would be considered rape, and punished as such; and if you had to, wouldn’t you rather suffer that than Case A?” > [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > You think rape doesn’t ruin families and friendships? That raped women don’t have some relationship issues? That potential lovers or boyfriends don’t sometimes cut and run because they don’t want to deal with someone’s drama? That friends won’t accuse a woman of lying about being raped by someone from their social circle? That parents won’t encourage their daughter to keep quiet about being raped by a family member? Come off it. I never came _on_ it; see above. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/97 "2008-11-12T21:39:49Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > And I ask again, because you never answered me the first time: how do you propose that a man can be sure – and PROVE – his partner has given consent? I don’t think it’s that difficult to be sure your partner has given consent. If there are any doubts he could try ASKING her. I don’t believe I ever said anything about men collecting proof of consent. My advice wasn’t meant to help the guy in court, it was meant to help a rape accusation from ever being made in the first place. If the woman has given clear consent then that avoids the possibility of horrible misunderstandings, and it also reduces (but admittedly does not eliminate) the possibility that a regretful woman will be able to convince herself that she didn’t really consent. She won’t be able to say to herself “Since I didn’t actually say ‘yes’ he should have realized that I was reluctant, so he as good as raped me.” If she’s grimly determined to lie then there’s nothing the man can do to prevent that, but obtaining clear consent will make it harder for her to justify the lie to herself. > [@](#): > > _You seem to feel there’s some magical litmus test the man can apply to the woman that will tell him, “Oh, she’s going to lie about this in the morning and screw up my life. I should not have sex with her.”_ I have not suggested that there’s any foolproof method for determining whether a woman is going to lie. I have only said that men could protect themselves against SOME accusations by being more careful about who they have sex with. There are SOME cases where a reasonable man should be able to recognize that the woman is bad news. I must say that I am really surprised that I’m having to defend so strenuously the idea that making responsible decisions is good. I had no idea that so many people here thought that since good judgment isn’t 100% effective 100% of the time then there’s no point in being careful at all. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/98 "2008-11-12T21:49:25Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t think it’s that difficult to be sure your partner has given consent. If there are any doubts he could try ASKING her. I think by definition a false rape allegation implies consent was actually given (assuming sexual intercourse occurred at all). If consent was not given and the guy had sex with her then the rape allegation is true. ---
**Author:** ![mudkicker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@mudkicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mudkicker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/99 "2008-11-12T21:52:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Certainly lip service has been paid to it. > > What I object to in **Lamia’s** posts is the sense of turnabout is fair play. She agrees false accusations are wrong but then suggests since men have had at women for courting getting raped (because they wear a mini skirt or something) that it is somehow ok for her to say men courted a false rape accusation. > > I would say it is even more reprehensible coming from someone who finds victim blame of rape victims to be odious to turn around and do the same back at men who are falsely accused. She _knows_ what a lousy thing it is to blame a rape victim. To do the same back at men is not only wrong but also makes her a hypocrite. > > Victim blame is crap whichever way you slice it and I think the proper position is to denounce it unambiguously no matter who the victim is. She isn’t saying this. She’s saying that if a woman is raped, that woman will be told what her ‘mistakes’ were and how she could have protected herself better - by not drinking, not going back to a stranger’s apartment etc. If a man is falsely accused of rape, no-one says to him that perhaps it was a bit reckless of him to bring a woman he had just met back to his apartment, or have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. For decent men who would not rape, surely this is something to be aware of - that woman you have just met _could_ very well say the next morning that you raped her, and so perhaps it is better not to have sex with her. The false accusation is entirely the woman’s fault, but, just as women are given safety tips on minimising the risk of rape, why shouldn’t men be given tips on avoiding false accusations? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082/100 "2008-11-12T21:56:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think by definition a false rape allegation implies consent was actually given (assuming sexual intercourse occurred at all). If consent was not given and the guy had sex with her then the rape allegation is true. Not true in the majority of states. Rape usually in the US requires both expressed absence of consent and the use of force. In New Jersey, the act of penetration absent consent has been ruled to be sufficient force. That’s not true of most states, however. Saying no isn’t enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/changing-your-mind-the-night-after-sex-rape-does-this-ever-happen/472082.md?page=6)