# Characters doing the shady thing... and it works **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954 "2017-10-27T05:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/1 "2017-10-27T05:42:46Z")
So a trope that often shows up in fiction is something like this: Person A: Wow, this is quite a dilemma we are in. How will we ever resolve this problem? Person B: Well… we could (blackmail someone/use our psychic powers in an evil way/commit a crime/do something else unethical and underhanded) Person A: We can’t do that! (We’re better than that/if we do that, we’re no better than them/then we will turn to the dark side of the force) IE, someone proposes a solution to a problem which seems like it might work, but which moves previously mostly-good characters into a morally worse area than they were before. I’ve feel like I’ve seen plenty of times where person A wins the argument, and they don’t do that bad thing. And plenty of times where person B either wins the argument or just goes ahead and does it, with the predictable result that either it doesn’t work, or it does work but at far too high a cost, as person A warned. Can anyone think of a situation in which they go ahead and do person B’s underhanded scheme… and it gets them out of the current situation, and then does NOT end up having lingering evil side effects or anything. Perhaps even we end up seeing person A saying “you know, I still feel guilty about that… but I’m glad we made that decision”? ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/2 "2017-10-27T06:01:10Z")
I don’t watch a lot of US TV anymore, but isn’t that the standard MO of most of the “team of specialists who get the job done” shows like **Leverage**? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/3 "2017-10-27T06:19:13Z")
A Time to Kill Lawyer A: What are we going to do?? Lawyer B: Do what Harry Rex would do. Cheat. Cheat like Craaaazy. Lawyer A: _frowny_, _thinky_, _smiley_ ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/4 "2017-10-27T06:27:09Z")
_Wag the Dog_ ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/5 "2017-10-27T06:35:53Z")
Sisko on DS9 did stuff like that, at least a couple of times…although, if I recall correctly, [once it was played off](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/For_the_Uniform_(episode)) more like “tee-hee, we’re so naughty” (and didn’t actually have much in the way of collateral damage), but the [other notable time](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/In_the_Pale_Moonlight_(episode)) was _much_ bleaker, with Sisko having somewhat of a crisis of conscience. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/6 "2017-10-27T06:45:04Z")
It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia lives this theme. And Eric Cartman, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/7 "2017-10-27T07:01:46Z")
MacBeth? No…wait… Starting off not so much as a dilemma but as a very problematic scenario - Jeffrey in _Blue Velvet_ wants to find out what the hell is going on with the ear, Dorothy the singer and Frank the psycho, and hopes to resolve the problem by trying to [persuade](https://youtu.be/Ehp4PCcKHCM?t=1000) the squeaky-clean-as-Calgonite Sandy to help him snoop into (at first) Dorothy’s life, but then in the course of events, Frank’s, as well. Sandy lets herself get swept up in Jeffrey’s snoopings, which I’d regard as “unethical and underhanded”, basically because it isn’t any of their business, not to mention Sandy being totally aware she’s being drawn in to danger. This example veers a little bit more from the OP, though, in that the net result isn’t so much them getting out of any current situation, but more a tidy resolution of finally figuring out all the connections between Dorothy and Frank, leading to the eventual reunion of Dorothy and her kidnapped son, and a bullet hole through Frank the fucker’s head. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/8 "2017-10-27T09:33:28Z")
_The Player_ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/9 "2017-10-27T12:24:46Z")
The TV show Lethal Weapon does this almost every episode. So does Lucifer actually. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/10 "2017-10-27T14:31:39Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia lives this theme. > > And Eric Cartman, sometimes. I doesn’t really work when the characters are horrible people to begin with. They are just acting normally for them. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/11 "2017-10-27T15:45:32Z")
Here’s why I brought it up (week-old spoilers for X-Men TV show **The Gifted** ahead): So, on the TV show **The Gifted** , there was a dilemma. One mutant has the ability to open portals between different places. All of the mutants (generally, the good guys) need her to be able to do this in order to effect a rescue. But her power is inconsistent. So, a second mutant (with the ability to mess with memories) gives her a memory of having been in love with one of the mutants being rescued, giving her an added incentive to do the portalling. A third mutant warns the second mutant against using her power in this way, it’s invasive, it’s unethical, etc. So the first step worked out (the added incentive did let the rescue go off). And it struck me that I’d love it if when the first mutant finds out what happened, her response is to say “well, that’s pretty fucked up, but, you know, it was necessary, and it worked. But please don’t do it again.” and they just leave it at that, rather than there being some big Consequences. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/12 "2017-10-27T16:16:00Z")
Columbo of course routinely conned murderers into revealing their guilt, which doesn’t count – but as good as he was at _that_ aspect of his job, he was a lousy shot and would’ve presumably failed the marksmanship test to stay on the force. And so, when that came up in an episode, he eventually decided to have someone else pose as him and qualify on the pistol range – a choice which IIRC he never expressed any regret about, since IIRC he never actually wound up having to shoot anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/13 "2017-10-27T16:28:56Z")
I seem to remember it happening on one of the early seasons of **24**. They have captured a terrorist who won’t talk, they know another attack is planned but have no leads, so they decide: do we torture him for information? They’re on borrowed time, of course, so they decide to go ahead with the torture (as I recall, injecting him with something that makes his nerves register searing pain, but no physical damage). As I recall, they do get useful information, and beyond the “now we have become what we are fighting against”, which passes quickly, I don’t remember repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/14 "2017-10-27T16:46:56Z")
Don Draper lives through all of **Mad Men** under a stolen identity he used to take an early discharge from Korea and it never really comes back to bite him. It’s a plot point now and then but never really blows up in his face and the handful of people who do find out are largely ambivalent. That’s an overarching plot point though so maybe it doesn’t qualify per the OP. Closer to the OP would be when Joan sleeps with a potential client to win a contract for the firm (and with the firm’s knowledge). Don obviously has a strong moral objection to Joan prostituting herself but she goes ahead with it and not only helps save the firm but also ultimately becomes a millionaire because of it. In your face, morality! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/15 "2017-10-27T16:51:34Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Sisko on DS9 did stuff like that, at least a couple of times…although, if I recall correctly, [once it was played off](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/For_the_Uniform_(episode)) more like “tee-hee, we’re so naughty” (and didn’t actually have much in the way of collateral damage), but the [other notable time](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/In_the_Pale_Moonlight_(episode)) was _much_ bleaker, with Sisko having somewhat of a crisis of conscience. I was going to come in for the second one. Spoilers to follow: The good guys were losing a devastating war; the good guys tried to bring in a 3rd party to join the war on their side (the Romulans) by generating fake evidence that the bad guys were about to attack the 3rd party; the 3rd party didn’t believe the evidence, but unbeknownst to the main good guy, one of his allies had planted a bomb on the 3rd party representative’s ship, killing him, and successfully making it appear that the bad guys had assassinated the 3rd party and tried to destroy the (fake) evidence, and thus successfully bringing the 3rd party into the war on the side of the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/16 "2017-10-27T16:59:13Z")
Person A is the by-the-book rookie fresh out of the academy Person B is the loose cannon cop that doesn’t play by the rules ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/17 "2017-10-27T17:10:31Z")
IIRC, Batman uses the device that makes cellphones into sonic surveillance cameras (or something like that) against the warnings of Luscious Fox, and it works. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/18 "2017-10-27T17:48:03Z")
Person B could be the Devil or his emissary attempting to lure Person A into soul default, a scenario that has played out predictably many times. In the 1972 film adaptation of the famous Gothic novel, _The Monk_, things play out a bit differently, with the main character’s decision to sell his soul saving him completely. This is not how the novel ends. > **[Le moine (1972) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068960/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_3)** > > Le moine: Directed by Adonis Kyrou. With Franco Nero, Nathalie Delon, Nicol Williamson, Nadja Tiller. Ambrosio is a monk who is sexually tempted by an emissary of the Devil, a young girl in monk's robes. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/19 "2017-10-27T17:55:46Z")
“Now, Brigadier, I must bid hail and farewell. I shouldn’t even be here at all. I’m not exactly breaking the laws of time but I am bending them a little.” ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954/20 "2017-10-27T18:09:02Z")
There was an episode of WKRP where a photographer gets nudes of Jennifer and tried to blackmail her. IIRC, Johnny suggests they “Watergate it”. I think he says something like, “I’m just putting this out there to get it out of the way so we can move on to more serious ideas.” Again, IIRC (and, jeez, it’s been years since I saw it) they do get the photos that way. I forget if that resolves the blackmail problem entirely, though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-doing-the-shady-thing-and-it-works/799954.md?page=2)