Characters that aren’t understood by their writers

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Lee_Q

Is there something specific about the characters that makes you disbelieve they wouldn’t know cartoons, like maybe they seem to know all kinds of other pop culture references EXCEPT cartoons, or is it more like “Anybody who grows up American knows Warner Brother cartoons”?

Yes, every single show is stuffed with zillions of references to pop culture, including cartoons. It’s part of the point of the show.

[Lee_Q]

@Exapno_Mapcase

Yes, every single show is stuffed with zillions of references to pop culture, including cartoons. It’s part of the point of the show.

I see. That’d probably drive me crazy. I’ll continue my not-watching of the show.

[Wendell_Wagner]

This is the scene where you’re supposed to realize that Sheldon and Leonard don’t know anything about pop culture except for science fiction and fantasy:

In it, neither of them know anything about *The Brady Bunch*, Van Halen, Madonna, Sean Penn, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Johnny Depp, Richard Gere, Britney Spears, and Tweety Bird. This doesn't strike me as consistent with the rest of the show. I think a bigger problem is that, although the four main guys are supposed to be big science fiction fans, they never mention anything related to written science fiction. I find it hard to believe that anyone as smart as them would grow up watching but not reading science fiction.

[zamboniracer]

@Trinopus

Well, already addressed upthread, so let me say, instead, that Harlan Ellison did not understand the Star Trek universe in general.

Posts #4 & 5 upthread are the only ones that discuss the issue, and to call them discussion is to be extremely generous. I’m no longer interested in the issue tho, so carry on.

IMHO. YMMV.

[drewder]

J.K. Rowling didn’t understand that Hermione was far too smart to ever date Ron let alone marry him.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Wendell_Wagner

In it, neither of them know anything about The Brady Bunch, Van Halen, Madonna, Sean Penn, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Johnny Depp, Richard Gere, Britney Spears, and Tweety Bird. This doesn’t strike me as consistent with the rest of the show.

Well, yeah. I mean, I don’t know who those other people are, but Batman?

[WhyNot]

@drewder

J.K. Rowling didn’t understand that Hermione was far too smart to ever date Ron let alone marry him.

Oh, how I wish that were true.

I was Hermione. I dated Ron. So many Rons… :smack:

[snoe]

Fred Clark, a progressive evangelical blogger at Patheos, has been doing close readings of the Left Behind novels for years now. A persistant theme of Clark’s criticism is that LaHaye and Jenkins don’t perceive their characters the way a reader would. Partly this is because of their weird theological subculture, but it’s also just extremely bad, lazy writing.

Here’s a recent example from Clark:

… while my imagined back-story for this character may be fanciful and idiosyncratic, it still makes more sense than either the main characters’ perceptions of her or what we’re told directly about her by the authors themselves. The book’s official description of Loretta is consistently inconsistent, repeatedly contradicting itself.

The example here — Loretta uses computers, but wouldn’t even know how to open a laptop — forces readers to conjure up some kind of meta-Loretta, reading between the lines to try to create some figure who could contain all the contradictory things we’re told and shown about this character.

This meta-character turns out to have to be omni-capable and wicked smart. And, because we can only see her in contrast to the surrounding cast of characters like Buck and Rayford, she also becomes, almost by default, the most likable figure in any scene in which she appears.

“Buck and Rayford” are the probable Jenkins/LaHaye stand-in characters and the heroes of the novels, by the way. Buck’s a great journalist who never actually writes anything. Rayford’s an airline pilot who always introduces himself as “Captain Steele” and manages to be intolerably cruel, not just to his Bible-believing wife (before she gets Raptured!), but also to the flight attendant he keeps stringing along in a not-quite affair that never gets past the kissing stage. These dudes are, in short, a couple of real assholes, and the authors think they’re heroes.

[igor_frankensteen]

Potential religion-based cartoon to draw for this thread:

Yahweh, getting ready to smite the earth with forty days of rain, is interrupted by a Greek god wearing an “I like Adam” T-shirt, and is told

“No no no! That’s not the problem. You just don’t understand your own characters!!”

[Derleth]

@snoe

These dudes are, in short, a couple of real assholes, and the authors think they’re heroes.

Yeah, protagonist-centered morality (if the protagonist does it, that makes it a good thing to have done) and a religion which conflates and confuses ritual purity with moral righteousness will do that to a work of fiction.

You can see this in the Old Testament, where the audience is expected to root for a specific group of people even as they commit genocide, because they’re the protagonist group and they’re on God’s good side, because they’re following the Law.

[Chronos]

[Moderating]

Might I humbly request that we keep religion out of this thread? I don’t think we’re really getting in trouble with any of the posts yet… but I’d like to keep it that way.

[Colibri]

@Wendell_Wagner

This is the scene where you’re supposed to realize that Sheldon and Leonard don’t know anything about pop culture except for science fiction and fantasy:

In it, neither of them know anything about *The Brady Bunch*, Van Halen, Madonna, Sean Penn, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Johnny Depp, Richard Gere, Britney Spears, and Tweety Bird.

I flunked that test myself. Admittedly, I knew most of the answers at one time but have forgotten them. (However, although I’m aware of The Brady Bunch I don’t think I ever watched an episode. I don’t know the names of the kids.)

I know a number of academics who would do pretty much as poorly on that test as Leonard and Sheldon. They were raised in academic households that didn’t have a TV, or else encouraged watching PBS. They don’t have a TV now (or only watch news and documentaries), don’t go to Hollywood movies, don’t listen to pop music, and have never read People magazine. Their cultural world is not the one that most people live in.

[Colibri]

Incidentally, I kind of wonder whether someone in Penny’s generation would know some of those answers anyway. Kaley Cuoco was born in 1985.

Sammy Hagar replaced David Lee Roth in Van Halen in 1985. Madonna was married to Sean Penn from 1985 to 1989. These would kind of be ancient history to Penny.

The other questions are more plausible, but most of them are still more likely coming from someone a decade or more older than Penny.

Cultural references in TV shows are often ones appropriate to the writer’s generation, rather than the younger character actually making them.

[MrAtoz]

@Colibri

I flunked that test myself. Admittedly, I knew most of the answers at one time but have forgotten them. (However, although I’m aware of The Brady Bunch I don’t think I ever watched an episode. I don’t know the names of the kids.)

I know a number of academics who would do pretty much as poorly on that test as Leonard and Sheldon. They were raised in academic households that didn’t have a TV, or else encouraged watching PBS. They don’t have a TV now (or only watch news and documentaries), don’t go to Hollywood movies, don’t listen to pop music, and have never read People magazine. Their cultural world is not the one that most people live in.

A few years ago at Gen Con (a gaming convention, for those who might not know), I played in a role-playing scenario that was a mash-up of Big Bang Theory and The Wizard of Oz. At least one of the other players, while he knew Big Bang Theory inside and out, had never watched The Wizard of Oz in his life.

[GuanoLad]

@Colibri

Incidentally, I kind of wonder whether someone in Penny’s generation would know some of those answers anyway. Kaley Cuoco was born in 1985.

I’m currently taking a Graphic Design class at a Technical College, so I find myself hanging around with a bunch of Millennials, and it’s surprising to me what they do or don’t have familiarity with. Some of them know a whole bunch of pop culture from pre-their era, and are even on a bit of an 80s kick at teh moment despite being born circa 1990. While others are asking things like “Have you ever seen a movie called Blade Runner?” and getting mystified looks and shaking heads in response.

[Derleth]

@GuanoLad

I’m currently taking a Graphic Design class at a Technical College, so I find myself hanging around with a bunch of Millennials, and it’s surprising to me what they do or don’t have familiarity with. Some of them know a whole bunch of pop culture from pre-their era, and are even on a bit of an 80s kick at teh moment despite being born circa 1990. While others are asking things like “Have you ever seen a movie called Blade Runner?” and getting mystified looks and shaking heads in response.

This ties into some other things I’ve been noticing, all centered around the fact we’re in an era when arbitrarily old recorded media is now, for the first time, available to even the most casual.

So people can get old shows and music on Netflix and YouTube and the Internet Archive, and thereby get references which, in the old world of media scarcity, would have gone over their heads if they didn’t have some special access. However, that leads to an eclectic knowledge, and not one driven by any recognized canon. It’s a historical media grab-bag, and everyone comes away with something a little bit different.

[Tom_Tildrum]

I’ve been slogging through Star Trek: Voyager on Netflix, and Captain Janeway defines this topic.

@snoe

These dudes are, in short, a couple of real assholes, and the authors think they’re heroes.

Reading too quickly through the thread, I initially thought this was still talking about Big Bang Theory. :)

[Jim_s_Son]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Cite?

I can’t remember where exactly, most likely an “E True Hollywood” story or maybe a TV Land history of the show.

[Jim_s_Son]

Cybill Shepherd in her book “Civil Disobedience” says in the fourth season of “Moonlighting” they decided to recreate the tension between Maddie (Shepherd) and David (Bruce Willis) by having Maddie impulsively marry a man she met on a cross country train trip. She objected, saying Maddie never would do anything like that. It didn’t work, viewership declined and Stephen a Bishop (Dennis Dugan) was soon written off the show.

[elfkin477]

@GuanoLad

While others are asking things like “Have you ever seen a movie called Blade Runner?” and getting mystified looks and shaking heads in response.

I’m a couple years older than the oldest of Millennials and while I have a vague idea of what it’s about (cyborgs? androids?) I’ve never seen Blade Runner either. It wasn’t something my parents would’ve taken to me when I was five, and I didn’t grow up to be interested in that sort of sci-fi when I was old enough to choose what to watch for myself.