# Characters that become tropes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906 "2021-03-28T15:18:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/21 "2021-03-28T21:20:40Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Whichever you count as the ur-trope character, I think there is definitely a trope there: the girl (young woman in some revisionist versions) who goes on a magical adventure in an Otherworld, opposes a villain, and wins through by being brave, clever, kind, and making friends. Sounds like a female version of Joseph Campbell’s ‘The Hero’s Journey’. Or I should say, A version of it. No reason the hero’s journey should typically be a male thing. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Moriarty is an even more widespread trope that Holmes himself. There are lots of Holmes-type heroes but there are even more Moriarty-style super-villians. Interesting theory, but not sure I buy it. What supervillains do you think are directly based on Moriarty? ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/22 "2021-03-28T21:45:10Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Sounds like a female version of Joseph Campbell’s ‘The Hero’s Journey’. Or I should say, A version of it. No reason the hero’s journey should typically be a male thing. There’s definitely elements of that, but I think it’s a slightly different and more specific trope. In the Alice/Dorothy trope, there’s generally no father’s (or mother’s) sword, and in fact the Hero doesn’t use weapons at all. _Martial_ valor tends to be conspicuously absent. The older mentor tends to play a minimal role or be entirely absent. The hero tends to return home wiser a bit older, but _not_ as a conquering hero - while they may remain a Hero in the Otherworld, at home they’re still an ordinary girl. And the trope is very specifically about a _contemporary_ girl/young woman from the mundane real world entering a magical Otherworld (the “Hero’s Journey” is often set in its entirety “long ago and far away”, and the Otherworld is often metaphorical). Also note that Campbell didn’t publish _The Hero With a Thousand Faces_ until 1949, decades after Alice and Dorothy were created, and modern folklorists tend to think claims of a “monomyth” are exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/23 "2021-03-28T22:10:30Z")
Tarzan. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/24 "2021-03-28T22:38:33Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Tarzan Yes; excellent example. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/25 "2021-03-28T22:41:21Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Interesting theory, but not sure I buy it. What supervillains do you think are directly based on Moriarty? I mean all the bond villains, which then became their own, almost universal, trope. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/26 "2021-03-29T00:43:43Z")
Romeo and Juliet. An interesting example because, while you might have a Holmes without a Watson I’m thinking of Columbo,) Romeo and Juliet simply don’t exist without each other. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/27 "2021-03-29T01:21:41Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Interesting theory, but not sure I buy it. What supervillains do you think are directly based on Moriarty? A LOT of action/cop/spy TV shows lately have the good guys up against “The Brilliant Criminal Mastermind”. After the fifth or sixth one I kiddingly said “We could make a drinking game. Take a shot every time the good guys say ‘He’s been two steps ahead of us every time!’” ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/28 "2021-03-29T01:31:36Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Also note that Campbell didn’t publish _The Hero With a Thousand Faces_ until 1949, decades after Alice and Dorothy were created, and modern folklorists tend to think claims of a “monomyth” are exaggerated. Great analysis, but Campbell was writing about a “monomyth” that already existed, however exaggerated it may have been. So Alice / Dorothy may have been part of the myth he wrote about. > [@griffin1977](#): > > I mean all the bond villains, which then became their own, almost universal, trope. But can they be traced to Moriarity? There are plenty of comic book super villains. Is Lex Luther, for example, inspired by Moriarity? Maybe…? > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Romeo and Juliet. An interesting example because, while you might have a Holmes without a Watson I’m thinking R&J are a great example, there have been plenty of star-crossed lovers from warring families. But, minor quibble with Columbo…yes he was a brilliant detective but he was based on a detective in Fyodor Dosteyevsky’s novel ‘Crime and Punishment’. In both cases they pretended to be dumber than they really were to lull the suspect into a sense of complacency. A trope in itself, but slightly different than the Shelock Holmes trope, in which the detective is actually emotionally or mentally different than the rest of society, but has a savant-like ability to solve crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/29 "2021-03-29T01:49:25Z")
> [@solost](#): > > …Joseph Campbell’s ‘The Hero’s Journey’… Isn’t that just Pilgrims Progress analysed? ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/30 "2021-03-29T01:59:13Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Son Goku (The Trickster Monkey King) Inspired dozens of anime characters in everything from Dragonball Z to One Piece, > Jennifer (Veronica Lake) in _I Married a Witch_ lead to Bewitched which lead to Sally the Witch which lead to Minky Momo which led to Sailor Moon and dozens of other magical girl characters. > Speaking of Sailor Moon it was loosely based on The Tale of the Grasscutter (also known as The Tale Of Princess Kagura) variations of which appear in many anime. **I Married a Witch** was based on the novel _The Passionate Witch_ by Thorne Smith; he died with it unfinished and it was completed by Norman Matson. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/31 "2021-03-29T02:15:55Z")
> [@digs](#): > > A LOT of action/cop/spy TV shows lately have the good guys up against “The Brilliant Criminal Mastermind”. After the fifth or sixth one I kiddingly said “We could make a drinking game. Take a shot every time the good guys say ‘He’s been two steps ahead of us every time!’” Ok, I’m a little tipsy… watching NCIS:LosAngeles and they JUST said “We’ll never catch her. She’s been outmaneuvering us at every turn, planning for every one of our moves.” _Not even an hour_ after I posted the above. Another mastermind, another shot of Tullamore DEW. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/32 "2021-03-29T02:49:52Z")
> [@solost](#): > > But can they be traced to Moriarity? There are plenty of comic book super villains. Is Lex Luther, for example, inspired by Moriarity? Maybe…? But I don’t think a trope needs to be directly inspired by the thing that started it. In fact I’d say if is directly inspired by something in another work, that’s allusion or a satire, not a trope. A trope is where something gets so ingrained into the culture it becomes part of the storytelling language. That’s why I’d say Holmes is less of a trope than Moriarty. There are plenty of heroes (particularly in crime dramas) that are obvious Sherlock Holmes tropes but _most_ supervillains are Morarity tropes to some degree IMO. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/33 "2021-03-29T03:40:59Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Romeo and Juliet. An interesting example because, while you might have a Holmes without a Watson I’m thinking of Columbo,) Romeo and Juliet simply don’t exist without each other. Though it it that much of a trope? What aspect of Romeo and Juliet has become a standard plotline in modern romances? With the exception of romances that are just R+J set in a different era, which isn’t a trope really. They don’t tend to end in both parties dying. I guess there are a couple of modern romances where the lovers are from opposing sides of some big societal divide but its not so common as to be a trope IMO (and even if they are the general theme is not that they are doomed because of coming from opposing sides, which is the point of R+J). ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/34 "2021-03-29T05:40:31Z")
mostly you see the trope in like street gangs or religions … … i think west side story is more of a trope than anything … ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/35 "2021-03-29T13:46:35Z")
The Flash Gordon serials set the scene for Star Wars and every other space and space battle show. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/36 "2021-03-29T14:40:17Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > mostly you see the trope in like street gangs or religions … … i think west side story is more of a trope than anything … I’m not so sure. Admittedly that’s not my genre of choice but I can’t think of many examples of that from romantic movies that _aren’t_ (like West Side Story) trying to be a literal version of Romeo and Juliet. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/37 "2021-03-29T14:43:05Z")
The part of the Romeo & Juilet trope I see a lot is “two young lovers from different backgrounds” or “two young lovers kept apart by their families”. Even if there are fewer sword fights and suicides. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/38 "2021-03-29T14:45:33Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > a point about Alice. She’s not so much the hero of an adventure in a magical land as someone who a bunch of weird stuff happens to. Dorothy is I think closer to the ur-trope. Alice is a clear forerunner to Dorothy, though, so I think it’s a bit of a toss-up. I’ve been thinking more about Alice. Like Dorothy, she stumbles into a series of worlds that are far from her norm. But that’s a description of _Gulliver’s Travels_, a satire with outrageously outlandish (literally) characters. Alice is sort of a granddaughter to Gulliver. And a sort of grand-niece to Don Quixote, who imagines his worlds. Remember that both Alice and Dorothy are dreaming theirs. The real trope is the stranger in a strange land. That fits _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court_ and _The Beverly Hillbillies_ as well as science fiction like _Lost in Space_ (and a novel that doesn’t need mentioning). The notion has ancient roots. Much of the _Odyssey_ fits that description. So does Lucian’s [_A True Story_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_True_Story), which satirized works like the _Odyssey_. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/39 "2021-03-29T14:58:09Z")
I wonder if the all-powerful criminal mastermind might owe more to Sax Rohmer’s Fu Manchu than to Moriarty, at least most directly. One thing about Moriarty is that we really don’t see him in action all that much. He shows up in “The Final Problem” for the sole purpose of killing off Holmes, and though we are told that he is “The Napoleon of Crime,” we don’t see it. We only meet him after Holmes has brought down his criminal enterprise, and he’s essentially been defeated. He dies in that story, taking Holmes with him. And as we find out later, he didn’t even manage to do that! Racist as they are, the Fu Manchu novels actually showed us an evil genius who was constantly three steps ahead of his adversaries. We didn’t just hear about how brilliant he was, we saw him doing stuff: stealing government secrets, killing closely guarded victims with impunity, outwitting his pursuers at every turn. Time and again, our heroes Nayland Smith and Dr. Petrie (who bore more than a passing resemblance to Holmes and Watson) would fall into his traps, and find themselves locked in a fiendish death trap from which there was no escape! Until they found one, of course. There’s probably some line from Moriarty to Fu Manchu, of course. As I say, Rohmer’s heroes were clearly based on Holmes and Watson. But it’s in Rohmer that we see the various Evil Mastermind tropes actually presented, rather than just talked about. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/40 "2021-03-29T14:59:49Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The real trope is the stranger in a strange land. That is really broadening it beyond the ideas of the OP–he didn’t want “detective”, he wanted “detective who is hyper observant but weird and has a sidekick”. In the same vein, I very much do not mean “stranger in a strange land”, I mean “young-to-very-young girl transported alone to weird fantasy land where she has growth-experience adventures along with one or more helpful companions picked up along the way”. If you are going to broaden it to the point of meaninglessness, you might as well say that it is _really_ the trope “person doing stuff”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=3)