# Characters that become tropes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906 "2021-03-28T15:18:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/41 "2021-03-29T15:07:17Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > The real trope is the stranger in a strange land. > > That is really broadening it beyond the ideas of the OP–he didn’t want “detective”, he wanted “detective who is hyper observant but weird and has a sidekick”. In the same vein, I very much do not mean “stranger in a strange land”, I mean “young-to-very-young girl transported alone to weird fantasy land where she has growth-experience adventures along with one or more helpful companions picked up along the way”. I was curious about character types who have become so common that the character has become a trope, either as the original character itself or as a thinly-disguised knockoff. I’m fine with keeping definitions loose, but yeah, “stranger in a strange land” is a little too open and general. Also seems like more of a situational trope than a character trope. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > you might as well say that it is _really_ the trope “person doing stuff”. Man, I see that trope all the time! I was just watching a show last night where a person was doing stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/42 "2021-03-29T15:13:02Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > That is really broadening it beyond the ideas of the OP Meh. First, I continue to disagree with you about Alice being a trope. There are too few examples. Second, I was responding to gdave. Third, he like others had already veered away from the narrow meaning of the OP. (A Hero’s Journey - does it get broader than that?) Broadening happens in around 110% of these threads. I’ve given up trying to fight it. > [@solost](#): > > I was curious about character types Yeah, I find that a more interesting question, which is why I addressed it directly in my first post. But Alice is a tiny subset of a much larger and far more important theme and needs to be relegated there and removed from the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/43 "2021-03-29T15:18:43Z")
Did I miss a mention of Robinson Crusoe? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/44 "2021-03-29T15:25:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > But Alice is a tiny subset of a much larger and far more important theme and needs to be relegated there and removed from the discussion. Maybe you should leave choosing what should be “removed from the discussion” to the OP or the mods? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/45 "2021-03-29T15:45:51Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Remember that both Alice and Dorothy are dreaming theirs. The original Dorothy, from the books, was very much _not_ dreaming. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/46 "2021-03-29T15:55:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Third, he like others had already veered away from the narrow meaning of the OP. (A Hero’s Journey - does it get broader than that?) Except that I explicitly pointed out that the Alice/Dorothy trope character (and I personally think Dorothy is closer to the ur-trope in this case) _isn’t_ just someone on a Hero’s Journey. As @Darren_Garrison points out, and I absolutely agree with them, there are a lot of more specific elements to this particular character that has become its own trope. - Girl/young woman (and it’s _always_ a female character), - from the mundane contemporary world, - who feels neglected/misunderstood/isolated/lonely, - is transported to a magical Otherworld, - where she encounters not just picaresque One-D@mn-Thing-After-Another adventures, but also or only specific opposition from a specific villain, - which she overcomes through cleverness, courage, and kindness, - but _not_ martial valor or fighting skills, - and largely through the friends she makes along the way, - until she finally confronts and defeats the Big Bad, - and returns home to her mundane existence, - having learned some Very Important Lessons, - including a realization of just how much she really does love her family. That seems a _lot_ more specific to me than “The Hero’s Journey” or “Stranger in a Strange Land”, and it gets used a _lot_, in however many re-tellings and re-imaginings and pastiches of _The Wizard of Oz_, but also other works, some of which @Darren_Garrison listed, to which I’d also add just off the top of my head, _Labyrinth_ and _The Nutcracker and the Four Realms_, as well as scads of YA fiction. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/47 "2021-03-29T15:59:44Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Did I miss a mention of Robinson Crusoe? As with Romeo and Juliet its clearly hugely influential but not particular the origin of many tropes. Other than films (like Castaway) that are just direct remakes of Robinson Crusoe, what plotlines from RC have become common as to become a trope? Ship wrecks (terrestrial or space) are a common plotline but they tend to be groups of people not a single sailor, who then has to survive alone, and that is a The Tempest trope not a RC trope (possibly thats the most widespread Shakespeare trope?). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/48 "2021-03-29T16:14:24Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > as well as scads of YA fiction. Neil Gaiman really likes the trope. Along with _Mirrormask_ and _Coraline_ (which I already mentioned) he has done at least one more book that hasn’t had a movie version yet-- _Un-Lun-Don_. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/49 "2021-03-29T16:34:28Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > > > Did I miss a mention of Robinson Crusoe? > > As with Romeo and Juliet its clearly hugely influential but not particular the origin of many tropes. Other than films (like Castaway) that are just direct remakes of Robinson Crusoe, what plotlines from RC have become common as to become a trope? Robinson Crusoe lent his name to a whole genre, so yeah, I think it has become common enough. > **[Robinsonade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinsonade)** > > Robinsonade (/ˌrɒbɪnsəˈneɪd/) is a literary genre of fiction wherein the protagonist is suddenly separated from civilization, usually by being shipwrecked or marooned on a secluded and uninhabited island, and must improvise the means of their survival from the limited resources at hand. The genre takes its name from the 1719 novel Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe. The success of this novel spawned so many imitations that its name was used to define a genre, which is sometimes described simply as a... The part that’s debatable is whether it’s the _character_ that is the trope, as opposed to the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/50 "2021-03-29T16:45:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Maybe you should leave choosing what should be “removed from the discussion” to the OP or the mods? I’m making an argument. It was not a command. > [@gdave](#): > > Except that I explicitly pointed out that the Alice/Dorothy trope character (and I personally think Dorothy is closer to the ur-trope in this case) _isn’t_ just someone on a Hero’s Journey. I never said or implied that it was. My only reference to the Hero’s Journey was that it was broad. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The original Dorothy, from the books, was very much _not_ dreaming. The 1939 movie Dorothy is dominant in popular culture. And I’d argue gdave’s list of characteristics apply more to the movie Dorothy than the Dorothy of the series of Oz books. Not to mention that books with boy heroes abound with just about every one of those traits, except possibly the fighting skills. And Heinlein wrote several YA books about non-fighters. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/51 "2021-03-29T17:02:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I never said or implied that it was. My only reference to the Hero’s Journey was that it was broad. Here’s what you actually wrote: > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I was responding to gdave…he like others had already veered away from the narrow meaning of the OP. (A Hero’s Journey - does it get broader than that?) That sure read to me as saying that I had “veered” away from the narrow meaning of the OP by including a prototypical Hero’s Journey character. Is that not what you meant? If it is, then I stand by my contention that Dorothy Gale is a more specific character that has become a trope. If it’s not, what _did_ you mean and why did you bring up the Hero’s Journey? > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > books with boy heroes abound with just about every one of those traits, I may be wrong about the gender component. I personally can’t think of any stories off the top of my head with a boy character that otherwise fulfills the trope, while I could readily think of a half-dozen with girl characters, but of course that’s hardly definitive. What boy examples are there? > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > except possibly the fighting skills. I think that’s actually a key element of the trope, that the character _doesn’t_ triumph through violence, but through _friendship_, as well as cleverness and moral courage. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Heinlein wrote several YA books about non-fighters. I’ll admit I’m not terribly familiar with Heinlein’s YA output. Do his boy heroes fulfill the Dorothy trope other than gender? If there are a significant number of boy characters that otherwise fulfill the trope, then _gender_ clearly isn’t actually a key element of the character trope. But even if that’s the case, I still think the rest of the character and story traits have become a recognizable trope. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/52 "2021-03-29T17:44:27Z")
> [@solost](#): > > But can they be traced to Moriarity? There are plenty of comic book super villains. Is Lex Luther, for example, inspired by Moriarity? Maybe…? I think Moriarty was the first super-villain, but that he was engineered so specifically as a worthy foil to Holmes- sort of an anti-Holmes if you will. I’d argue that while Moriarty introduced the concept of the super-villain and Fu Manchu fleshed it out some, the contemporary super-villain trope is based squarely on Ernst Stavro Blofeld. Dr. No is basically Fu Manchu rewritten into the Bond universe, but Blofeld is kind of like the archetypical modern supervillain. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/53 "2021-03-29T17:54:04Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Robinson Crusoe lent his name to a whole genre, so yeah, I think it has become common enough. Along the same lines, a fictionalized young Thomas Edison became a trope and lent his name to a whole genre: > **[Edisonade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edisonade)** > > Edisonade is a genre of fictional stories about a brilliant young inventor and his inventions, many of which would now be classified as science fiction. This subgenre started in the Victorian and Edwardian eras and had its apex of popularity during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Other related terms for fiction of this type include scientific romances. The term was introduced in 1993 by John Clute in his and Peter Nicholls' The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction. It is an eponym, name Us... Although it’s been decades since the trope was particularly popular. Are we only looking for characters who have become _current_ pop culture tropes? ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/54 "2021-03-29T18:08:17Z")
Although not well known today I think the popularity of E E Doc Smith’s Skylark and Lensmen series lead to Flash Gordon and other space heroes. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/55 "2021-03-29T18:13:05Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Although it’s been decades since the trope was particularly popular. Are we only looking for characters who have become _current_ pop culture tropes? I was thinking current when I started the thread, but the “Robinsonade” and “Edisonade” genres are interesting and were the first I had heard of them. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/56 "2021-03-29T18:13:45Z")
Also (as much as I love Flash Gordon) Flash was a knock-off of John Carter and “that Buck Rogers space stuff”. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/57 "2021-03-29T18:41:12Z")
As a spinoff of Holmes, Agatha Christie’s Miss Marple became the archetype for the cozy mystery – an amateur sleuth (Holmes was a professional), often an elderly woman, who tracks down murderers. There is very little violence in the stories (even the murders are quick and often bloodless). They often end with a gathering of suspects. The killer, when confronted with the facts of the crime, confesses and goes quietly with the police. Often the detective concentrates on the personality of the killer – the clues only make sense in the context of their personality. Obviously, _Murder She Wrote_ is based on this, as is _Father Brown._ ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/58 "2021-03-29T18:44:56Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Obviously, _Murder She Wrote_ is based on this, as is _Father Brown._ Except that Father Brown (in his literary form) preceded Miss Marple. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/59 "2021-03-29T19:01:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I mean “young-to-very-young girl transported alone to weird fantasy land where she has growth-experience adventures along with one or more helpful companions picked up along the way”. Count me in as among those who see that in Dorothy more than in Alice. Alice’s adventures are more of a sequential satire, as **Exapno\_Mapcase** mentioned. (Which BTW that is one critique I do have of reinterpretations such as Burton’s that try to “give her agency” by turning her into a straight out Fantasy Action Heroine. Sometimes it’s OK to do a story about Everyman (or Everygirl) ending the day shaking their heads at how stupid is the world they find themselves in, not saving it. ) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/60 "2021-03-29T19:24:14Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > Obviously, _Murder She Wrote_ is based on this, as is _Father Brown._ > > Except that Father Brown (in his literary form) preceded Miss Marple. Missed that, but I think Miss Marple is more the ur-text of the trope, since the amateur detective in this trope is usually a woman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=4)