# Characters that become tropes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906 "2021-03-28T15:18:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/61 "2021-03-29T19:32:33Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Along the same lines, a fictionalized young Thomas Edison became a trope and lent his name to a whole genre: It happens that I wrote about the genre extensively in my book _Robots in American Popular Culture_. As your Wikipedia link notes, Edison came into play much later than the origins of the genre in 1868. I’ve never been happy with the term because of that. > [@furryman](#): > > Although not well known today I think the popularity of E E Doc Smith’s Skylark and Lensmen series lead to Flash Gordon and other space heroes. One of the great weird coincidences is that the first Anthony Rogers story appeared in the same August 1928 issue of _Amazing Stories_ as the first Skylark story. Transformed into Buck Rogers, the comic strip started in January 1929. It introduced the general public to science fiction and for years [defined what the genre was](https://www.flyingcarsandfoodpills.com/that-buck-rogers-stuff). Flash Gordon was created as a deliberate imitator by a rival comics syndicate. Even so, the Flash Gordon serials started first and became far more popular and influential than the lone Buck Rogers serial. (Again, see my book.) Both Flash and Buck were played by Buster Crabbe, who also Tarzan. Talk about a trope. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/62 "2021-03-29T21:33:06Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > Except that Father Brown (in his literary form) preceded Miss Marple. > > Missed that, but I think Miss Marple is more the ur-text of the trope Heh. Bit like how Sherlock Holmes keeps getting mentioned in this thread — as opposed to, well, Auguste Dupin. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/63 "2021-03-29T21:43:44Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Neil Gaiman really likes the trope. Along with _Mirrormask_ and _Coraline_ (which I already mentioned) he has done at least one more book that hasn’t had a movie version yet-- _Un-Lun-Don_ . That’s not Gaiman; it’s China Miéville. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/64 "2021-03-29T21:45:42Z")
> [@MacSpon](#): > > That’s not Gaiman; it’s China Miéville. Hm. Uh–Neil…Gaiman’s…pen…name? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/65 "2021-03-29T21:54:06Z")
A. J. Raffles was the start of the trope of the gentleman thief – a criminal who has a code of honor. Robin Hood was a precursor, but a gentleman thief usually steals from the rich and keeps it. He’s in it for the thrill, not necessarily the money and certainly not to help the poor (though he may). Those following include Arsene Lupin, Jimmy Dale (the Gray Seal), Simon Templar, Danny Ocean, and many others. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/66 "2021-03-29T22:32:04Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Interesting theory, but not sure I buy it. What supervillains do you think are directly based on Moriarty? Off the top of my head, I see similarities with Hannibal Lecher, The Master from Doctor Who, brilliant Bond villains like Blofeld, Goldfinger, Dr, or Dr. No, (not so much former Soviet assassins and whatnot) Felonius Gru, any number of brilliant, super-educated villains who follow the [“Evil Genius”](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilGenius) trope. Moriarty is probably one of the earliest I can think of. James Bond himself has become a bit of a trope. How many times have we seen spy movies imitate his style of the spy as a charming, worldly, tuxedo wearing, gadget wielding, sports car driving badass? The ‘badass’ female scifi pilot trope was probably created by Robert Heinlein, but appears in film often enough - Cpl Ferro, the dropship pilot from Aliens, Michelle Rodriquez’s character in Avatar, Ibanez in Starship Troopers, Starbuck, Boomer, Racetrack, etc in Battlestar Galactica. Curiously absent from Star Wars, with the possible exception of Jess Pava. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/67 "2021-03-29T22:38:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Neil Gaiman really likes the trope. Along with _Mirrormask_ and _Coraline_ (which I already mentioned) he has done at least one more book that hasn’t had a movie version yet-- _Un-Lun-Don_ . > [@MacSpon](#): > > That’s not Gaiman; it’s China Miéville. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Hm. Uh–Neil…Gaiman’s…pen…name? @Darren_Garrison, I think you might have gotten _Un Lun Dun_ mixed up with Gaiman’s _Neverwhere_, which has some similarities and features the Otherworld of “London Below”. I don’t think the protagonist(s) of _Neverwhere_ are examples of the Dorothy trope, though. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/68 "2021-03-29T23:51:22Z")
Here are three iffy possibles: Leon from _The Professional_. (There have to be older examples?) Older down-and-outer/criminal loner who reluctantly takes responsibility for the upbringing of a child, tutoring the child in the seamier aspects of life, possibly sacrificing himself for the child (thus finding redemption). Ghost Dog from _Ghost Dog_. Again, I feel like there have to be older examples. (Maybe the Lawrence Block hit man novels, though I feel like they’re way more breezy?) The hit man with esoteric interests and rigid habits. Is he on the autistic spectrum? Doesn’t seem to like killing people but extremely good at it. Like Leon, a loner. Maybe a Leon type taught him what he knows. Has a past which, y’know. But he’s prepared for that day, when it comes… (Yes, the Jackal, but no, he’s different.) Elric of Melniboné from Michael Moorcock’s novels and stories. Reluctant, cursed, tragic, and extremely competent fantasy hero. My sword and sworcery phase was long ago, but this type seemed to be everywhere. Moorcock seemed to have some Jungian ideas about where Elric came from, so maybe he’s not an innovation. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/69 "2021-03-30T00:02:04Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > I wonder if the all-powerful criminal mastermind might owe more to Sax Rohmer’s Fu Manchu than to Moriarty, at least most directly. One thing about Moriarty is that we really don’t see him in action all that much. He shows up in “The Final Problem” for the sole purpose of killing off Holmes, and though we are told that he is “The Napoleon of Crime,” we don’t see it. We only meet him after Holmes has brought down his criminal enterprise, and he’s essentially been defeated. He dies in that story, taking Holmes with him. And as we find out later, he didn’t even manage to do that! > > Racist as they are, the Fu Manchu novels actually showed us an evil genius who was constantly three steps ahead of his adversaries. We didn’t just hear about how brilliant he was, we saw him doing stuff: stealing government secrets, killing closely guarded victims with impunity, outwitting his pursuers at every turn. Time and again, our heroes Nayland Smith and Dr. Petrie (who bore more than a passing resemblance to Holmes and Watson) would fall into his traps, and find themselves locked in a fiendish death trap from which there was no escape! Until they found one, of course. > > There’s probably some line from Moriarty to Fu Manchu, of course. As I say, Rohmer’s heroes were clearly based on Holmes and Watson. But it’s in Rohmer that we see the various Evil Mastermind tropes actually presented, rather than just talked about. Doyle presented Moriarty as somebody who (A) could pick accomplished and competent assistants, and (B) was willing to delegate responsibility. Thus he didn’t **need** to do very much directly, until Holmes turned his full attention on Moriarty’s organization. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/70 "2021-03-30T01:16:48Z")
Fonzie? Here’s proof: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/QPPN_gkj_gk/hqdefault.jpg "Like Three Little Fonzies") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPPN_gkj_gk) ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/71 "2021-03-30T02:04:46Z")
_Mack Bolan -The Executioner_ inspired a lot of vigilante based rip offs most notably Marvel Comic’s The Punisher. Also I am surprised no one has mentioned Mad Max yet. His look and the look of other characters in the Mad Max movies inspired a lot of post-apocalyptic rip-off films. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/72 "2021-03-30T02:42:40Z")
As a fan of “Young Adult Literature (But Only The Really Good Stuff)”, I’d love to know where some of the tropes in contemporary series come from. So many post-apocalyptic societies. Kids in space… or just having adventures in the future. Oh, and tons of supernatural crap. BUT the most common would be the kid who starts to manifest magical or super powers, then discovers s/he is a witch/wizard/superhero. Sometimes there’s a mentor (or lately, a school) involved, sometimes they discover a group of similar kids. We signed up for a few streaming services to deal with the last year, and I’ve watched the first twenty minutes of _sooo_ many versions of Hogwarts (I tried to make it to the half hour point, but that’s all I could take before the clichés piled up too high)… So was there an archetype Harry Potter back in the day? (Ancient mythology? Edwardian teen lit? Anything?) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/73 "2021-03-30T03:12:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > James Bond himself has become a bit of a trope. How many times have we seen spy movies imitate his style of the spy as a charming, worldly, tuxedo wearing, gadget wielding, sports car driving badass? “A bit” of a trope? I’d say he’s probably the biggest one of all in terms of “hero” tropes. Not just spy movies. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/74 "2021-03-30T04:08:41Z")
> [@digs](#): > > BUT the most common would be the kid who starts to manifest magical or super powers, then discovers s/he is a witch/wizard/superhero. Spider-Man? (1962) ---
**Author:** ![Author\_Balk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Author\_Balk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Author_Balk)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/75 "2021-03-30T11:59:46Z")
How about Pygmalion? ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/76 "2021-03-30T12:50:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Dracula is far more a character out of plays and movies than from Bram Stoker’s novel, and there’s been zillions of movies that copy one another to reinforce that. The more I think about it, the more I think Dracula would win this category if it was a contest. In addition to all the times Dracula himself has been depicted, there’s been everybody from Count Choula to Grandpa Munster to the Count on Sesame Street. Things have changed somewhat recently, with the Twilight vampires looking like and hanging out with teenagers, but not that long ago if you were asked to picture an iconic"vampire" you probably would have imagined a very pale guy in an old-fashioned tux and black cape, talking in an Eastern European accent, sporting fangs and black hair slicked back in a widow’s peak. And Dracula is definitely a character trope, not a situational trope. For instance, of the 4 Universal Classic monsters Dracula, Frankenstein, the Wolf Man and the Mummy, Frankenstein I’d say also qualifies as a character trope, the ‘tragic monster that’s a product of man’s hubris’, but although the werewolf or wolf man trope has been used umpteen times, I think of it as a situational trope, rather than a character-based trope. There’s not a certain “type” of person who tends to become a werewolf. Same with mummies, I’d guess. I acknowledge the distinction might get a little fine at times, though. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/77 "2021-03-30T14:14:37Z")
The Wolfman is a Hyde trope. However Jekyll is a Dr. Frankenstein trope, as is the Invisible Man, Dr. Moreau, and a host of other mad scientists. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/78 "2021-03-30T16:53:06Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Moorcock seemed to have some Jungian ideas about where Elric came from, so maybe he’s not an innovation. Elric was the Anti-Conan. Everything Conan the Barbarian was, Elric was the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecc23a/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada_Jr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/79 "2021-03-30T16:58:42Z")
I think that the OP is on to something, but I think that by calling it a trope he sent most of the other poster’s barking up the wrong tree. There is something in the relationship of Dr. House to Mr. Holmes that is just not present in the relationship between Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Dorothy Gale, or even between Mr. Holmes and M. Dupin. In fact, House is an _homage_ to Holmes. William of Bakersfield in The Name of the Rose is another Holmes _homage_. Schlock Homes is a Holmes **parody**. Solar Pons by August Derleth is something closer to a rip-off. This is in addition to all the many, many straight-up Sherlock Holmes stories written by other authors. So, what other literary characters have a huge number of homages, parodies, and rip-offs? Superman has to be high on the list, between Captain Marvel, the Hyperion, several characters in Astro City, and on and on. Any others? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/80 "2021-03-30T17:00:28Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Elric of Melniboné from Michael Moorcock’s novels and stories. Reluctant, cursed, tragic, and extremely competent fantasy hero. I’m not familiar with these books, but that seems like an example of an Odysseus trope (surely one of the most long lasting and pervasive set of tropes in literature) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=5)