# Characters that become tropes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906 "2021-03-28T15:18:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/81 "2021-03-30T17:05:53Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](#): > > I think that the OP is on to something, but I think that by calling it a trope he sent most of the other poster’s barking up the wrong tree. Eh, I think that calling an often repeated character / character type a trope is accurate (see 2nd definition sense of “a common or overused theme or device; cliché”): > **[Definition of TROPE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trope)** > > a word or expression used in a figurative sense : figure of speech; a common or overused theme or device : cliché; a phrase or verse added as an embellishment or interpolation to the sung parts of the Mass in the Middle Ages… See the full definition ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/82 "2021-03-30T17:42:01Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Eh, I think that calling an often repeated character / character type a trope is accurate (see 2nd definition sense of “a common or overused theme or device; cliché”): Not if the writer explicitly bases a character on another one (e.g. as in in the examples @Reno_Nevada_Jr give “lets write Sherlock Holmes as a modern doctor” or “lets write Sherlock Holmes as a medieval monk,”) That’s an allusion or an homage. But the Moriarity-type super villain is absolutely a trope, and a very widespread one. The “Napoloen of Crime” archetype is pretty much ubiquitous, even though no one is going “Lets write Moriarty as an evil billionaire industrialist” ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/83 "2021-03-30T17:56:29Z")
Although Varney the Vampire may be the first sympathetic vampire in literature, I feel the appearance and brief success of Barnabas Collins in Dark Shadows led to the modern slew of sympathetic vampires. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/84 "2021-03-30T17:59:04Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Not if the writer explicitly bases a character on another one (e.g. as in in the examples @Reno_Nevada_Jr give “lets write Sherlock Holmes as a modern doctor” or “lets write Sherlock Holmes as a medieval monk,”) That’s an allusion or an homage. Hmm…maybe individual reimaginings of the Holmes character are allusion or homage as in those examples, yes, but in general I think the repeated use of a character or character type could be considered a trope. So in other words an individual example could be homage while being part of a larger trope. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/85 "2021-03-30T18:50:25Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Not if the writer explicitly bases a character on another one (e.g. as in in the examples @Reno_Nevada_Jr give “lets write Sherlock Holmes as a modern doctor” or “lets write Sherlock Holmes as a medieval monk,”) That’s an allusion or an homage. But where’s the line between “Sherlock Holmes _as_ \_\_\_\_\_\_” and “a \_\_\_\_\_\_ who’s a Sherlock Holmes-_type_ of character”? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/86 "2021-03-30T18:57:41Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But where’s the line between “Sherlock Holmes _as_ \_\_\_\_\_\_” and “a \_\_\_\_\_\_ who’s a Sherlock Holmes- _type_ of character”? It the consciousness of the decision. To me a trope is something that has become part of the common language of storytelling, so much so you no longer have to explicitly say “I’m writing this character as Sherlock Holmes in space” you just write a cerebral hero who solves crimes with a side kick using deduction. To keep coming back to Holmes vs Moriaity, there are there fewer examples of that for Holmes than for Moriarity. The “hero has nemesis who is genius super villain” trope is a far bigger part of the language of storytelling. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/87 "2021-03-30T23:15:00Z")
James Bond is the ultimate trope not only because it spawned many alike characters in the spy genre but also because the tropes themselves got parodied in satire movies of the spy genre. Dean Martin played Matt Helm in four movies I believe that were a ribbing of the Bond image. Furthermore once the Cold War ended suddenly James Bond had a problem because other spy movies could be written to advance with time but Bond was quintessentially a Cold War establishment gentleman killer spy all in one go. The smoke and mirrors of those kind of spy days was finished. This led to what Pierce Brosnan has subsequently reasoned a period of reflection where the demand was still really high to pump out Bond but the franchise weren’t sure which way to go so while his movies did well at the time retrospectively they don’t rank as high in public surveys because they come across generic action thrillers. He did several movies that had a bit of everything that came before him but nothing stand out. Daniel Craig in a post 9/11 surveillance world had the franchise embrace bringing Bond into modernity and which meant changing the tropes around somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/88 "2021-03-30T23:23:38Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > James Bond is the ultimate trope not only because it spawned many alike characters in the spy genre but also because the tropes themselves got parodied in satire movies of the spy genre. Dean Martin played Matt Helm in four movies I believe that were a ribbing of the Bond image. See also: James Coburn’s outings as superspy Derek Flint (complete with a running gag about British agent Triple-0-8). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/89 "2021-03-31T01:43:26Z")
> [@solost](#): > > > [@Reno\_Nevada\_Jr](#): > > > > I think that the OP is on to something, but I think that by calling it a trope he sent most of the other poster’s barking up the wrong tree. > > Eh, I think that calling an often repeated character / character type a trope is accurate (see 2nd definition sense of “a common or overused theme or device; cliché”): > > [Trope Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trope) Maybe “[stock character](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stock_characters)” is more accurate? ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/90 "2021-03-31T02:07:17Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > > [@snoe](#): > > > > Moorcock seemed to have some Jungian ideas about where Elric came from, so maybe he’s not an innovation. > > Elric was the Anti-Conan. Everything Conan the Barbarian was, Elric was the opposite. Actually, I came to this thread to post Conan as a character that became the trope of the barbarian hero. 🤷‍♂️ Not that we wouldn’t have overlap with various ‘noble savage’ characters, such as Tarzan which have been previously mentioned. As for Elric, I always felt his character was a clear descendant of the various [doomed/geased](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geas) Celtic heroes. Similar themes are seen in Arthurian myth (which drew from many of the same Celtic sources in part). Apparently Moorcock drew upon more contemporary sources for his inspirations for Elric, at least according to articles I read in the past, but they in turn drew on yet older sources. For that matter, I’m sure that self dooming heroes are a truly ancient trope, since they’re ubiquitous in Greek myth. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/91 "2021-03-31T10:54:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Maybe “[stock character](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stock_characters)” is more accurate? Well, my OP was about actual characters who are reused and reimagined so often they become tropes (whether ‘trope’ is the accurate term for that aside), either as the actual character or as a thinly disguised knockoff. That Wikipedia list of stock characters is an interesting read, but are more generic than my original meaning in creating the OP. But thanks for the article, I like reading stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/92 "2021-03-31T20:21:35Z")
> [@digs](#): > > So was there an archetype Harry Potter back in the day? There’s the biblical story of Moses… ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/93 "2021-03-31T22:41:06Z")
Harry Potter might as well be the cover art for modern printings of _Hero With A Thousand Faces_ My first thought when reading the thread title was Falstaff. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2021, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/94 "2021-04-01T08:23:20Z")
Dennis Hopper’s wigged-out photojournalist character in Apocalypse Now. Not sure how many of you will agree, but I think I see a lot of actors channeling that performance when they portray an “insider” who appears to be a potential accomplice or at least potentially sympathetic to the protagonist’s cause but turns out to be bat-shit crazy. Maybe Hopper was channeling someone else’s interpretation of the Renfield character in Dracula. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2021, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/95 "2021-04-01T11:55:55Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Maybe Hopper was channeling someone else’s interpretation of the Renfield character in Dracula. The only thing Hopper was likely channeling was cocaine directly into his nose 😆 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/96 "2021-04-08T19:24:10Z")
The character of Arsène Lupin as the “gentleman criminal”. Has appeared in various forms and media since 1905 (including the classic anime Lupin III and a Netflix film Lupin) and likely the mold for such characters as Thomas Crown, Danny Ocean and his gang, Simon “The Saint” Templar, any number of characters from Guy Richie films and various other imitators. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/97 "2021-04-08T22:24:49Z")
As I pointed out already, A.J. Raffles was the originator of the trope, predating Lupin by seven years ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/98 "2021-04-08T22:44:12Z")
Yep. See that now. 😐 ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/99 "2021-04-08T23:47:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@Boycott](#): > > > > James Bond is the ultimate trope not only because it spawned many alike characters in the spy genre but also because the tropes themselves got parodied in satire movies of the spy genre. Dean Martin played Matt Helm in four movies I believe that were a ribbing of the Bond image. > > See also: James Coburn’s outings as superspy Derek Flint (complete with a running gag about British agent Triple-0-8). Someone mentioned Bond way back near the beginning of the thread. As I read that, I realized that I couldn’t think of any Bond-character who wasn’t a parody. Or at least started out as such, even if they may have become serious later. Certainly Flint and Helm were parodies. Napoleon Solo (Man from UNCLE) started off that way. And of course Austin Powers. Now there are probably some that weren’t parodies, and I’m sure everyone will have fun letting me know about them. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906/100 "2021-04-09T00:44:06Z")
I’m trying to think of what set Bond apart from previous fictional spies. I think maybe it’s that he was the first male spy to incorporate Mata Hari type romancing techniques into his craft. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/characters-that-become-tropes/938906.md?page=6)