# Charging a teenager as an adult - when is it appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585 "2015-07-30T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/1 "2015-07-30T16:38:01Z")
So here in California, [a 15-year old neighbor boy has been charged with the rape and murder of 8-year old Madyson Middleton.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/30/us/boy-15-is-charged-with-murder-in-killing-of-madyson-middleton.html?_r=0) He’s being charged as an adult, which means he’s eligible for life in prison without parole. And…I’m not comfortable with that. It is a horrible, heinous crime and I absolutely feel he needs to be punished, severely and for a long time but…he’s 15. Still a kid. No history of petty crime, no history of abuse in the family, nothing that says he’s a sociopath that was working his way up to this. A bit moody and angsty, but no more than your average 15-year-old boy. Nothing that says he’s not redeemable. We have a separate juvenile justice system for a reason - because children who commit crimes (even awful ones) are still children - their brains are not fully developed, their sense of right and wrong and consequences are not complete, their ability to be influenced by others is much higher, and with treatment they hopefully have a higher chance of going out and being productive members of society than adult criminals. I can see charging an older teen as an adult _sometimes_ - when they have a long juvenile rap sheet, when they’re nearly 18 and have a long list of bad decisions in their past that shows very few good decisions in their future - but in this case, it just sits wrong with me. What do you think about the idea of charging children as adults, in general and in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/2 "2015-07-30T17:08:46Z")
I’m uncomfortable about this particular case too, but there is a lynch mob mentality going on right now due to the horrible way he treated that girl. If the death penalty were a possibility, I’m sure lots of people locally would be eager to see him go that route. However, is it not true that, if he were treated as a juvenile, then his incarceration would have to end at 21? If that is the case then I can better understand why the state wants to treat him as an adult. There needs to be some alternative between juvenile/released at 21 and adult/incarcerated for life. There are too many teens going to jail for life just because 5 or 6 years is not enough time for the crime they committed - not enough time for rehabilitation, if that is the goal, and certainly not enough time for punishment. Having said that, how many people are in jail for drug “crimes” who shouldn’t be there at all? I’d weep for them before I’d weep for this kid. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/3 "2015-07-30T17:26:01Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > We have a separate juvenile justice system for a reason - because children who commit crimes (even awful ones) are still children - their brains are not fully developed, their sense of right and wrong and consequences are not complete In many states a 15 year old can start taking drivers ed. If they can be trusted to operate a motor vehicle than it certainly is an age they should know that kidnapping, sexual assault and murder is wrong. BTW, I thought Miller V Alabama said life w/o parole for Juvi offenders was unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/4 "2015-07-30T17:34:12Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In many states a 15 year old can start taking drivers ed. If they can be trusted to operate a motor vehicle than it certainly is an age they should know that kidnapping, sexual assault and murder is wrong. In how man of those states can they get an unrestricted drivers license at age 15? The state either says they have the judgment of an adult, or it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/5 "2015-07-30T17:36:04Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In many states a 15 year old can start taking drivers ed. If they can be trusted to operate a motor vehicle than it certainly is an age they should know that kidnapping, sexual assault and murder is wrong. > > BTW, I thought Miller V Alabama said life w/o parole for Juvi offenders was unconstitutional. If that’s the case though, why don’t we allow them to vote? It’s not an all or nothing deal here. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/6 "2015-07-30T17:49:06Z")
I think his crime was horrific, but at the same time, all killing or jailing him for life would accomplish is destroying another kid. Now, with that said, a part of me does feel like what he did was so terrible that we shouldn’t take any chances. And I do think society expects him to pay the full price for it, and if he got off easy he might be a victim of reprisal. So I really don’t know. I like the idea of rehabilitation and I don’t advocate bloodlust, but when I think about what he did it makes it hard to feel that much for him. Same with the guy who killed Elin Krantz (don’t Google her name, you will be sorry). It’s never made sense to me to try children as adults, though. We don’t try adults as children when they commit non-serious crimes, so why try a kid as an adult because their crime is serious? BTW - am I the only person who finds the fact he tortured and duct taped her more disturbing than the fact he raped and murdered her? I feel like it really “ups the ante” so to speak - it’s definitely serial killer behavior. It implies to me that he took pleasure in causing her harm rather than being motivated by self-gratification. I want to think this kid is just socially inept and extremely disturbed because that’s what the news I’ve read make him sound like, but when I picture what he might have done to her in my head it makes me fear that he’s just plain evil. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/7 "2015-07-30T17:53:57Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In many states a 15 year old can start taking drivers ed. If they can be trusted to operate a motor vehicle than it certainly is an age they should know that kidnapping, sexual assault and murder is wrong. > > BTW, I thought Miller V Alabama said life w/o parole for Juvi offenders was unconstitutional. Can we expound on that, can they vote? How about drink? How about join the military? Add this to just another of the long list of why “adulthood” should all come at the same time, for whatever age is deemed appropriate. But no one should be able to just change the age, on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/8 "2015-07-30T17:54:50Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I’m uncomfortable about this particular case too, but there is a lynch mob mentality going on right now due to the horrible way he treated that girl. If the death penalty were a possibility, I’m sure lots of people locally would be eager to see him go that route. > > However, is it not true that, if he were treated as a juvenile, then his incarceration would have to end at 21? If that is the case then I can better understand why the state wants to treat him as an adult. > > There needs to be some alternative between juvenile/released at 21 and adult/incarcerated for life. There are too many teens going to jail for life just because 5 or 6 years is not enough time for the crime they committed - not enough time for rehabilitation, if that is the goal, and certainly not enough time for punishment. > > Having said that, how many people are in jail for drug “crimes” who shouldn’t be there at all? I’d weep for them before I’d weep for this kid. I think this case is a good example of why we shouldn’t have closed all the insane asylums. It should be interesting to see how they rule. I’m guessing life, California doesn’t mess around. Death is off the table, it was ruled unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/9 "2015-07-30T17:57:51Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In many states a 15 year old can start taking drivers ed. If they can be trusted to operate a motor vehicle than it certainly is an age they should know that kidnapping, sexual assault and murder is wrong. The idea isn’t that they don’t know these things are wrong, but instead that they are less able to conform their conduct to what they know is right than an adult because of the nature of their undeveloped brains. > [@pkbites](#): > > BTW, I thought Miller V Alabama said life w/o parole for Juvi offenders was unconstitutional. Correct. Doesn’t matter how this kid is tried, he can’t get LWOP. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/10 "2015-07-30T18:00:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In how man of those states can they get an unrestricted drivers license at age 15? The state either says they have the judgment of an adult, or it does not. Agree with that. They’re are deemed unable to drive, drink, vote, agree to sex, sign a contract, etc…, because lack of maturity, of experience, of self-control, prefontal cortex not fully developed and so on but then suddenly they’re supposed to be exactly as responsible as adults when they do something wrong? Doesn’t make sense to me. My first answer to the OP would be that they should never be charged as adults. I’m willing to be convinced otherwise. ETA : reminds me of this two British boys (8 yo?) who murdered a little kid (3 yo?). Many people thought they should have received a life sentence, even at this age. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/11 "2015-07-30T18:03:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In how man of those states can they get an unrestricted drivers license at age 15? The state either says they have the judgment of an adult, or it does not. Is that so? Can an adult have sex with a 15 year-old in these states? Can a 15 year-old choose to star in a porn movie? To join the army? The law says they cannot do this, because they are not mature enough to make responsible decisions. So should they really be held reponsible for the decisions they make in the same way that adults are? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/12 "2015-07-30T18:04:41Z")
Some of you are comparing apples with curling irons. 15 is more than old enough to know rape/murder is wrong and horrific. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/13 "2015-07-30T18:08:27Z")
So why all those other restrictions for minors? What is it that they - intellectually - are too young to understand at that age? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/14 "2015-07-30T18:08:42Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Same with the guy who killed Elin Krantz (don’t Google her name, you will be sorry). I’m sorry ☹ Not because of the murder description, because I ended up not reading much about it, but because I discovered “metapedia, the alternative ancyclopedia” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/15 "2015-07-30T18:09:46Z")
I think the Supreme Court said it pretty well: > [@Lightly edited SCOTUS opinion in Miller](#): > > . First, children have a lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility, leading to recklessness, impulsivity, and heedless risk-taking. Second, children are more vulnerable to negative influences and outside pressures, including from their family and peers; they have limited control over their own environment and lack the ability to extricate themselves from horrific, crime-producing settings. And third, a child’s character is not as well formed as an adult’s; his traits are less fixed and his actions less likely to be“evidence of irretrievable depravity. > > Our decisions rest not only on common sense—on what any parent knows—but on science and social science as well. In Roper, we cited studies showing that only a relatively small proportion of adolescents who engage in illegal activity develop entrenched patterns of problem behavior. And in Graham, we noted that developments in psychology and brain science continue to show fundamental differences between juvenile and adult minds—for example, in parts of the brain involved in behavior control. We reasoned that those findings—of transient rashness, proclivity for risk, and inability to assess consequences—both lessened a child’s moral culpability and enhanced the prospect that, as the years go by and neurological development occurs, his deficiencies will be reformed. > > Deciding that a juvenile offender forever will be a danger to society would require making a judgment that he is incorrigible—but incorrigibility is inconsistent with youth. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/16 "2015-07-30T18:10:38Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Some of you are comparing apples with curling irons. 15 is more than old enough to know rape/murder is wrong and horrific. What is the cut-off age, then? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/17 "2015-07-30T18:14:07Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Some of you are comparing apples with curling irons. We’re not the ones that translated “15 is old enough to start taking drivers ed classes” into the ability to have an adult drivers license, then equated _that_ with being old enough to be tried as an adult. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/18 "2015-07-30T18:15:04Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m sorry ☹ Not because of the murder description, because I ended up not reading much about it, but because I discovered “metapedia, the alternative ancyclopedia” Now I’m doubly sorry because searching this name leads either to very unsavory sites or to _very_ graphic pictures. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/19 "2015-07-30T18:22:43Z")
If a 15 year old kid is old enough to take drivers ed, is he old enough to have consentual sex with your 15 year old daughter without your permission? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585/20 "2015-07-30T18:49:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think the Supreme Court said it pretty well:[ > those findings— **transient rashness, proclivity for risk, and inability to assess consequences** —both lessened a child’s moral culpability and enhanced the prospect that, as the years go by and neurological development occurs, his deficiencies will be reformed. “Rashness” ? “lessened moral” compass? Willingness to take risks? Inability to understand consequences? Yeah, those 4 elements that the Supreme Court lists might be relevant for some juvenile crimes. Maybe they’re relevant as excuses for why teenagers do silly stuff like shoplifting, or driving fast. Experiences that are rash, risky, a little immoral, but the kid thinks he won’t get caught to face the consequences . But this is a case of premeditated murder! He didn’t just kill somebody accidently. He planned it in advance (so it doesn’t match the Supreme Court’s concept of teenage “Rashness”). He committed acts of terrible ,inexcusable, cruelty…(so it doesn’t match the Court’s concept of slightly “lessened moral culpability”) And every 15 year old kid knows that murder is damn serious…so it doesn’t match the Court’s concept of “inability to understand consequences” This isn’t just a teenage risky “mistake”. This specific kid , for these crimes, deserves to be given the full penalty as an adult. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-a-teenager-as-an-adult-when-is-it-appropriate/726585.md?page=2)