# Charging minors as adults **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985 "2009-02-22T23:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/61 "2009-02-25T17:58:58Z")
It may be that in some cases, a juvenile is tried as an adult in order to keep them incarcerated for a longer period of time. I think in CA, a juvenile can only be held until age 25 maximum, regardless of their crime. It’s true that some jurisdictions probably abuse their ability to make the decision of whether to charge a juvenile as an adult. In one notorious CA county, all juveniles charged with murder are tried as adults. ALL of them. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/62 "2009-02-25T18:42:53Z")
If the kid had entered into a sexual relationship with his teacher, instead of murdering his father’s girlfriend, would the teacher have been charged with statutory rape? Why is the kid adult enough to murder, but not adult enough to have sex? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/63 "2009-02-25T20:43:00Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > If the kid had entered into a sexual relationship with his teacher, instead of murdering his father’s girlfriend, would the teacher have been charged with statutory rape? > > Why is the kid adult enough to murder, but not adult enough to have sex? the charge of rape is against the teacher and the age of the child infers that an adult who should know better coerced a child into sex. Being coerced into something that feels good cannot be compared to the act of premeditated murder. This does not preclude a defense strategy of coercion or other outside influences if they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/64 "2009-02-26T01:37:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not to disagree with what you’ve said but I would add that simply using the term “child” as a demarcation point does not fully address the situation. 18 is not the same as 15 which is not the same as 10 which is not the same as 5. > > It’s important to understand the underlying conditions behind the crime but it’s equally important that a mentally imbalanced child isn’t reintroduced into society as an imbalanced adult for no reason behind having been given a mulligan for being young. Yeah, a lot happens between 11 and 18. Still, this crime is looking like a classic pre-meditated murder. Waits till the girlfriend’s asleep, gets his own gun, kills her, goes to school. Now how old does a kid have to be until they understand the impact of their actions? I think they should be charged on basis of the crime. This boy ain’t right, but how about this, (and just for this case…) Juvie or institution until he’s 18, then a long probation (possibly life-long probation) where previous charges and convictions COULD be used as evidence against him in another violent altercation? Meaning, he’s 58, gets in a fight at a bar, and might spend 10-15. His brain and attitude will change dramatically in the years from 11-18 as many of you have said… ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/65 "2009-02-26T02:34:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the charge of rape is against the teacher and the age of the child infers that an adult who should know better coerced a child into sex. Being coerced into something that feels good cannot be compared to the act of premeditated murder. This does not preclude a defense strategy of coercion or other outside influences if they exist. Both situations require that the child make a decision. Coercion doesn’t enter into it- _he made the decision_. If he’s adult enough to make the decision to murder, then he’s adult enough to make the decision to have sex. Either hold him responsible for his decisions, or judge him as a child. It shouldn’t be legal to do both. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/66 "2009-02-26T03:17:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Why is the kid adult enough to murder, but not adult enough to have sex? Adult enough to murder? I don’t know what the laws are where you’re at but I’m 47 and I haven’t reached the age where it’s legal to commit murder yet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/67 "2009-02-26T06:44:20Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Both situations require that the child make a decision. Coercion doesn’t enter into it- _he made the decision_. If he’s adult enough to make the decision to murder, then he’s adult enough to make the decision to have sex. > > Either hold him responsible for his decisions, or judge him as a child. It shouldn’t be legal to do both. No, that’s simply wrong. Having sex with an adult is something that a child can be inticed to do (“candy little boy”). It’s along the lines of Marijuana use and cannot be compared to premeditated murder. One is a minor lapse in personal judgment and the other is an extreme abuse of another person. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/68 "2009-02-26T15:51:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, that’s simply wrong. Having sex with an adult is something that a child can be inticed to do (“candy little boy”). It’s along the lines of Marijuana use and cannot be compared to premeditated murder. One is a minor lapse in personal judgment and the other is an extreme abuse of another person. So, in this case for example, the kid was adult enough to be held responsible for killing his father’s girlfriend because he’s _not getting enough attention_… but he wouldn’t be adult enough to enter into a sexual relationship? If the kid can be enticed into having sex, he’s a minor and can’t be held responsible, and so therefore his partner would get into trouble. But if the kid thinks that killing his father’s girlfriend because she’s getting too much attention from his father is a good idea, suddenly he’s an adult? One of these decisions is an adult decision and has adult motivations, and it’s not the decision to murder. Sense. This makes none. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/69 "2009-02-27T04:30:47Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Sense. This makes none. Best of luck in law school. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/70 "2009-02-27T07:40:45Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Yeah, a lot happens between 11 and 18. Still, this crime is looking like a classic > pre-meditated murder. The murder never looked that way to me. It seemed as if the boy needed attention from his father who was probably preoccupied with his pregnant girlfriend. The boy, in turn, felt the sting of jealously and did the most primal thing: remove the object of his father’s affection. I’d be very curious to see the psychiatric evaluation of the boy. As an aside: Can someone explain how does an 11 year old kid have access to a gun? I mean, seriously, there isn’t a gun law that says something like “If the child isn’t using a firearm under the supervision of a guardian, then the firearm has to be locked away where a child may not easily access it.” When the father left in the morning, all of those firearms should have been stowed in a safe and secure location. Just my opinion though. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/71 "2009-02-27T18:19:32Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Can someone explain how does an 11 year old kid have access to a gun? I mean, seriously, there isn’t a gun law that says something like “If the child isn’t using a firearm under the supervision of a guardian, then the firearm has to be locked away where a child may not easily access it.” When the father left in the morning, all of those firearms should have been stowed in a safe and secure location. Again, the gun belonged to the child; it was specifically designed for use by a child, and he apparently used it routinely for hunting. In many states, guns of a certain type don’t have to be registered (the .22 rifle that my father-in-law gave my then-10yo stepson, for instance, or the pistol-grip shotgun that sits by my husband’s side of the bed now), so there’s no law precluding a child owning/operating it. One would hope, certainly, that common sense would rule and the gun would be kept secured when the child was not in the presence of a responsible adult, but this was clearly not one of those cases. And Lightnin’, you are missing the point that others are trying to make (whether you disagree with it or not is different). A child cannot comprehend ‘level of risk’-type scenarios; it’s why sitting on your bike at the top of a 30 degree incline feels amazing as a kid, but scary as hell to an adult. Kids don’t understand that if you swing a gun in a circle around your finger like the guys in the old Westerns, it might go off and kill someone. They don’t understand that if you flip someone onto a table like on their favorite wrestling show, that person could be seriously injured. They don’t understand that it’s not really good for them psychologically to let Ms. Smith give you a blowjob, no matter how hot she is. Every day during the summer we tell the kids at work not to dive in the shallow end of the pool, but almost every day someone does it (thankfully we’ve only had one ‘significant’ injury). There are also adults who can’t understand these concepts, whether through injury or an accident of birth, which is why we can make allowances for them in legal procedings (ie, a severly cognitively impaired individual isn’t likely to wind up on death row, unless they’re in Texas). However, children _can_ understand the very, very basic concept of “don’t kill someone” and can certainly be raised from a young age to understand that putting a shotgun against the back of someone’s head and pulling the trigger is probably going to violate that rule. Every day kids have gun-related accidents and are not/minimally charged. But every now and then, we come across a special situation- just like the adults, but in reverse- that calls for a harsher stance. You’re saying it can’t be both ways (responsibility vs rights), but I’d say it would be dangerous as hell to have it one way or the other, mostly for the point that Magiver brings up. It has to be both ways, just to allow for cases like this that are SO out-of-the norm that a one-size-fits-all ruling is inadequate. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/72 "2009-03-01T12:35:28Z")
So are you going to let him walk free with maybe some counselling on not to do things like that because they’re wrong? He murdered a pregnant mother because he was jealous of an unborn child. What next? Go on a gun rampage at school because a teacher told him off? Or perhaps hold him in some sort of secure school for the next few years and then let him loose on society as an adult who has learned that the worst extreme of human evil doesn’t carry any real punishment. If thats the case then you can live next door to him cos I wont be. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/73 "2009-03-01T12:45:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [A boy aged 11 has been charged with the murder of his father’s pregnant girlfriend in Pennsylvania.](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5785570.ece) > > The article says that there were ‘issues with jealousy’. Apparently. I’ve heard that children can have such issues when a parent is ‘replaced’ or a new child is born. > > I remember when I was eleven. I was a goofy kid who liked riding my bike and skateboard, building models, reading scary stories, and playing with my friends. I never wanted to kill anyone. If I had wanted to, and did, I don’t think I could have made the decision within the parameters of ‘adult’ thinking. It seems to me that the reason we have a juvenile justice system and an adult justice system is that children cannot reasonably be expected to behave as adults. > > And yet I often hear of minors being charged as adults. Legally a person is a minor through the day before his 18th birthday. I can certainly understand why a 17-year-old could be charged and tried as an adult. By the letter of the law I think that a minor should be charged as a minor. But I also think there are variables that would indicate that a legal minor should be charged as an adult. How ‘mature’ is a minor? (I’ve heard that some studies have shown that humans are often not ‘mature’ until the age of 25. Sorry, no cite.) When I was 17 I was a very responsible person, though a minor. Other 17-year-olds are goofs. Suffice it to say, I think that minors on the verge of adulthood may be charged as adults under circumstances. > > An 11-year-old? I have a harder time with that. An 11-year-old is not on the verge of adulthood. The crime may be an adult one, but I don’t think an 11-year-old can reasonably be said to think like an adult. > > So here’s the question: How young is too young to be charged and tried as an adult? Wouldn’t a given age be arbitrary? That is, could a 16-year-old literally ‘get away with murder’ while a 17-year-old can’t? (Not to say that he wouldn’t be punished; but that the punishment would be less than that for an adult.) What about a 15-year-old? Where do you draw the line? > > FWIW I first read about this at another message board. Of the eight responses calling for this particular 11-year-old to be ‘removed from society forever’, three recommend execution. IMO that’s as sad a commentary on our society as the crime itself. Sorry to double post but if we’re going to use the argument that a child doesn’t have the judgement in ordinary life to know that its wrong to steal let alone kill someone in cold blood then in that case every single child should not be allowed out in public unless escorted by an adult at all times . Ridiculous? No more then the argument that children of that age have no conception of the right or wrong of their actions. When I was much younger then that I and my schoolfriends knew the difference. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/74 "2009-03-01T21:18:15Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Sorry to double post but if we’re going to use the argument that a child doesn’t have the judgement in ordinary life to know that its wrong to steal let alone kill someone in cold blood then in that case every single child should not be allowed out in public unless escorted by an adult at all times . Ridiculous? No more then the argument that children of that age have no conception of the right or wrong of their actions. When I was much younger then that I and my schoolfriends knew the difference. Kids even from a very young age “know” the difference between right and wrong - in an abstract sense. But it takes time (and proper education) to get an actual visceral feel for the consequences and nature of these crimes. And, more importantly, to have the maturity and self control needed to act responsibly when dealing with emotionally difficult situations that can lead some down the path of certain actions. What’s ridiculous is that you don’t know the difference between “knowing” in the abstract sense and “knowing” in the viscerally aware of the nature of consequences and able to maturely handle difficult emotional scenarios sense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/75 "2009-03-01T21:18:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Adult enough to murder? I don’t know what the laws are where you’re at but I’m 47 and I haven’t reached the age where it’s legal to commit murder yet. That dosn’t even relate to what he is saying. He is saying that if he is old enough to be treated as an adult for killing a person he should be old enough to be treated as an adult for having sex with a person. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/76 "2009-03-01T22:22:04Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The murder never looked that way to me. It seemed as if the boy needed attention from his father who was probably preoccupied with his pregnant girlfriend. The boy, in turn, felt the sting of jealously and did the most primal thing: remove the object of his father’s affection. I’d be very curious to see the psychiatric evaluation of the boy. > As an aside: > > Can someone explain how does an 11 year old kid have access to a gun? I mean, seriously, there isn’t a gun law that says something like “If the child isn’t using a firearm under the supervision of a guardian, then the firearm has to be locked away where a child may not easily access it.” When the father left in the morning, all of those firearms should have been stowed in a safe and secure location. > > Just my opinion though. > > - Honesty I can’t agree with your first part. A primal reaction would be to shoot her in front of witnesses. Instead, he waited until she was asleep and his dad was gone, got close enough to put the barrel to the back of her head and squeeze. Then goes to school. Talk to his friends. See if he got any schoolyard advice, maybe. Posed the question to other kids. How an 11-year-old kid has access to a gun is frightening, just because accidents happen often, and good ol’ murders. So I’m with you there. My question is, if the kid had NO access to the gun, would he have used something else? My guess is no. I think access to the gun is the clincher in this case. No gun, then no murder. Maybe he just would’ve ran away. I guess we need to know how much the kid hated this situation to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/77 "2009-03-01T22:32:17Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > No more then the argument that children of that age have no conception of the right or wrong of their actions. I didn’t say a child has no conception of right and wrong. I said that children generally don’t think like adults. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/78 "2009-03-02T02:45:16Z")
Maybe the question should be about whether the kid realizes the long-term, permanent consequences of his actions, rather than merely “is it right or wrong.” Is the knowledge that our actions can have broad, permanent repercussions a developmental milestone? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/79 "2009-03-02T03:16:26Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > Maybe the question should be about whether the kid realizes the long-term, permanent consequences of his actions, rather than merely “is it right or wrong.” Is the knowledge that our actions can have broad, permanent repercussions a developmental milestone? I sure hope the answer is yes. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985/80 "2009-03-02T16:59:23Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > He is saying that it only works one way, and because it only works one way it is wrong. I agree. > > A kid can be tried as an adult because he knew what he was doing. > > He can’t buy a beer at the bar by saying he’s mature and knows what he’s doing. He can’t sign a contract in his own name because he knows what he’s doing. He can’t go buy cigarettes because he knows what he’s doing. He can’t vote because he knows what he is doing. > > Children under 18 have limited rights and responsibilities. The responsibilities should never be extended if the rights can’t be. So are you suggesting that judges should NOT have the discretion to try juveniles as adults, EVER? If so, I completely disagree. There are certain crimes for which society is better served if a juvenile offender is treated like an adult. Here is an example: suppose a 17 year old rapes and sodomizes a 4 year old boy. At 18, should the perpetrator’s record be wiped clean so he can get a fresh start? Not imo. This type of predatory behavior needs to be identified and dealt with…not wished away, even if the perp is too young to buy a beer. If the 17 y.o. in this scenario is not tried as an adult, then he has **no need to register as a sex offender since he has no record**. IMO the community is done a horrible disservice if a predatory sex offender, regardless of his age, does not have to register. For most juvenile crimes…such as shoplifting, shooting bb guns at cars, and other such childish pranks…I agree that trying them as children and expunging the record at 18 is appropriate. But there are certain crimes, notably capital murder and sexual assault, for which the adult system should be used, even for minors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charging-minors-as-adults/486985.md?page=5)