# charismatic mega-fauna and rhino ranching **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564 "2010-12-01T17:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/61 "2010-12-02T17:18:40Z")
Well, I figure there’s a distinction between an actual moron (i.e. someone with a learning disability) and a _fucking moron_ (someone who is stupid by choice, who believes things for which no evidence exists and would realize how fucking moronic the belief was if they ever thought about it honestly for two seconds). Shortchanging blind people is sufficiently far removed for me to be unconcerned by your attempt at linkage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/62 "2010-12-02T17:36:17Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > …the [1999 price of $1400 a kg](http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/ref_files/1175859017.pdf)(PDF)… I can’t be the only one who read this as 14kg of f in a pd, or whatever that thing is. ---
**Author:** ![muggle08](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@muggle08](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muggle08)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/63 "2010-12-08T19:11:23Z")
> [@usuboy71](#): > > This question was posed by my environmental ethics professor in an assignment. I have been trying to derive his meaning, and was hoping that I could get some help. Which is why I’m here…This was the third result for when I googled “rhino ranching.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/64 "2010-12-09T00:16:40Z")
Does a rhinoceros have any practical use for its horn? That is, if you harvest horns from living rhinos (the purpose of the proposed ranch), will it interfere with their mating rituals, or anything? And, will a severed rhino horn grow back? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/65 "2010-12-09T00:34:28Z")
If the alternative is no more Rhinos, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/66 "2011-03-13T00:25:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I dunno about that - I figured the main point of buying rhino horn was to demonstrate that you were capable (i.e. rich and with enough of a bad-boy streak to deal with criminals, etc.) of buying rhino horn. Trying to pitch something less exotic doesn’t serve this need. You appear to have unfounded assumptions about why rhino horn is used. It has nothing to do with the prowess of capturing a rhino. The bulk of people using it aren’t bragging to their friends and potential fuck-mates “Hey, I’m using rhino horn as an aphrodisiac, aren’t I so cool.” The point of buying rhino horn is that it is believed to be an aphrodisiac because it is shaped like a penis. Ergo, they go to the store and say “I want an aphrodisiac” and then get given the rhino horn. It may be that the customer doesn’t even know it is rhino horn, only that they are getting their requested product - the aphrodisiac. > [@runner pat](#): > > Rhinos object rather strenuously to having their horns taken _while they’re still alive._ So? We farm cattle for food and leather. We farm buffalo for the same thing. Why not farm rhinos for their horns? I mean, economically it may not work, but how is it ethically different? > [@Marley23](#): > > I’m still not sure what you’re trying to suggest, then. What do you mean ‘would it work?’ Are you asking if it would reduce the killing of rhinos? Maybe, but I doubt it would do much. After all the rhinos are not going to volunteer to have their horns harvested and the people poaching the horns don’t give a crap about shooting the animals. The proposed premise is that by farming the rhinos, you create a legal method of obtaining the horns, and by doing so at scale, you promote raising more rhinos - just like cattle. Sure, there is rhino turnover, but the market makes the rhino numbers increase and the price for horn decrease, which makes illegal rhino horn more expensive and less profitable, because they would have to fake the authentication papers as well. “This Rhino horn certified 100% farm grown.” Have a government inspector and a special seal on each shipment. > [@](#): > > I don’t think conservationists would support industrializing the abuse of animals as an alternative to killing them. And as you said earlier, this wouldn’t help any other species. Wildlife preserves tend to be for many animals, and wouldn’t this just be for rhinos? That is a valid criticism. The point of the original assignment might be to consider not just the effect on rhino population or the costs associated, but also the effect on conservationist efforts in general, and possible habitat loss. > [@Marley23](#): > > Wouldn’t that just bring the price of rhino horn down and increase demand? Possibly, but if we’re ranching the rhinos, we have economic incentive to keep actual rhino numbers up. Profit motive to the rescue. > [@Zsofia](#): > > The fact is, poachers aren’t going to want to go through all the effort, so they’d go steal them some taboo wild rhino horn anyway. Plus the “legal” ranched horn. But if the market prices come down because of numbers, and there is instituted a inspection and certification system to ensure only farmed rhino horns are legal, then the incentive for the buyers to use illegal horn goes down, because it is cheaper to get the legal kind anyway. Isn’t this exactly the argument used for legalizing drugs like marijuana? > [@](#): > > Also, rhinos aren’t exactly easy to farm - big hostile animals that take a long time to grow and don’t mate very well in captivity, right? I don’t know how well they grow in captivity, but aren’t buffalo big hostile animals? What about emus and ostriches? All of those are farmed for meat. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > See post #39. If you want to mess with murdering bastards who will do anything to protect their profit margin, be my guest. Isn’t that the exact same argument about legalizing drugs? Aren’t drug dealers murdering bastards who will do anything to protect their profit margin? So you think legalizing marijuana would have the same or different results? Why or why not? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Another knock against the slaughterhouse idea(I refuse to dignify it with the word “farm”) is that, if such a plan succeeds and rhinos are able to be raised in captivity, money to save the wild rhino will dry up. “We don’t need to preserve those wild rhino and the land they graze on-we’ve got plenty of them in captivity.” That is a valid point. Why protect habitat for wild rhinos? Their numbers are up in captivity. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does a rhinoceros have any practical use for its horn? That is, if you harvest horns from living rhinos (the purpose of the proposed ranch), will it interfere with their mating rituals, or anything? And, will a severed rhino horn grow back? Rhinos use the horn for defense and for dueling in mate selection, just like most animals use their horns. I do not think rhino horns grow back. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/67 "2011-03-13T00:30:02Z")
I still think that we should race the megafauna. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/68 "2011-03-13T01:20:00Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That is a valid point. Why protect habitat for wild rhinos? Their numbers are up in captivity. Because we haven’t determined that wild rhino aren’t a necessity for the local environment. Besides, we are talking about protection for the wild rhino _and_ their environment. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/69 "2011-03-13T04:38:55Z")
Sorry, that wasn’t an actual argument, it was an example of the argument someone might use. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/70 "2011-03-14T04:19:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I still think that we should race the megafauna. Can we have rhino rodeos? How 'bout megafauna jausting? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/71 "2011-03-14T04:42:05Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You appear to have unfounded assumptions about why rhino horn is used. It has nothing to do with the prowess of capturing a rhino. The bulk of people using it aren’t bragging to their friends and potential fuck-mates “Hey, I’m using rhino horn as an aphrodisiac, aren’t I so cool.” The point of buying rhino horn is that it is believed to be an aphrodisiac because it is shaped like a penis. Ergo, they go to the store and say “I want an aphrodisiac” and then get given the rhino horn. It may be that the customer doesn’t even know it is rhino horn, only that they are getting their requested product - the aphrodisiac. Well, unless you’ve got some cites backing up this interpretation, I’m going to stick with my original premise - that idiots buy rhino horn because to them the rhino is an exotic animal with expensive parts, giving them a chance to engage in wishful thinking _and_ conspicuous consumption. If the consumer really is ignorant of or indifferent to the ingredients of a folk-medicine-hawker’s product, the rhinos are safe because I expect the hawker won’t bother with the trouble and expense of getting actual rhino horn, when any powdered crap will do. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/72 "2011-03-14T15:27:50Z")
Actually, we seem to be falling prey to the thought that rhino horn is an aphrodisiac. According to Cecil, it is not. > **[Has Viagra helped endangered species by reducing demand for rhino horn, etc?](https://www.straightdope.com/21344080/has-viagra-helped-endangered-species-by-reducing-demand-for-rhino-horn-etc)** > [@](#): > > Answer: Because traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), whose reliance on eye-of-newt-type ingredients gets most of the blame for this sort of thing, doesn’t use rhino horn as an aphrodisiac. > > Q: It doesn’t? > > A: Nope. That’s a myth perpetuated by Western conservationists and other well-meaning folk — including some scientists, about which more below. While belief that rhino horn will restore failing virility isn’t unknown in Asia, it’s limited to fringe groups in India, Thailand, and Laos. > > Q: So why is rhino horn in demand? > > A: Because it’s been a TCM mainstay for 2,000 years, used to treat everything from flu to hepatitis. One 16th-century TCM manual recommends rhino horn for typhoid, headache, colds, carbuncles, food poisoning, arthritis, smallpox, and dysentery, although historically the most important use has been fever relief. Impotence, on the other hand, no. So, why would the retailer go through the bother to get actual rhino horn? Because they think they are practicing a form of medicine, and actually trying to cure illnesses, so they have to use the actual products they think will have the effects they desire. If they didn’t use actual rhino horn, _they_ would know they were giving “crap” to their customer, and expect it not to work, and expect their customer to not get well and thus not come back again. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/73 "2011-03-14T16:00:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d guess the question is supposed to make the student look beyond the mere physical problem of penning rhinos (such problems being considerable) and explore why rhinos are endangered in the first place. > Well, the smarter students, anyway. The less clever ones are probably drawing up plans for rhino farms, debating where to put the troughs and such. Perhaps this particular subset of students ought to visit Africa. And try some Rhino Wrangling in the wild. Lassoing, bulldogging & herding them would be loads of fun! ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/74 "2011-03-14T16:26:26Z")
> [@usuboy71](#): > > Can we preserve charismatic mega-fauna in rhino ranches? Are we misunderstanding the OP? “Can we…” seems to be a question of practicality. All the objections raised above are operative, but none are definitive of the OP’s question. He seems to be requesting some ultimate answer without specifying all the circumstances. We are left to define these for ourselves. To re-state: given whatever economic circumstances we wish to postulate, and given whatever means we choose to achieve the end result, is it possible under \*any \*scenario to preserve a large, charismatic species, as a species, by maintaining it in semi-captivity in a managed situation? Or will the objections above result inevitably in failure? BTW, rhino horn continues to grow throughout life, just as do hair and nails. If a horn is sawed off, it will still grow from the base, although slowly, and with the blunt “top” remaining. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/75 "2011-03-14T16:29:43Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Actually, we seem to be falling prey to the thought that rhino horn is an aphrodisiac. Who’s _we_, pal? > [@](#): > > So, why would the retailer go through the bother to get actual rhino horn? Because they think they are practicing a form of medicine, and actually trying to cure illnesses, so they have to use the actual products they think will have the effects they desire. If they didn’t use actual rhino horn, _they_ would know they were giving “crap” to their customer, and expect it not to work, and expect their customer to not get well and thus not come back again. But the customer won’t get well even if it _is_ genuine rhino horn (or at least he won’t get well _because_ it is genuine rhino horn). Hence my original suggestion to just flood the market with fake rhino horn powder, while charging an inflated price for it to satisfy customers that since it’s expensive, it _must_ be the real thing, since price and exotic labels seem to be all that matters, instead of efficacy. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/76 "2011-03-14T17:18:22Z")
The problem is that the poachers are simply exploiting a resource, (endangered, I acknowledge), in an attempt to provide for their family, living in abject poverty. You can ranch all the rhinos you like, it doesn’t change anything for the poacher. He’s still got a family to feed, and there is still a lucrative market for rhino horn. A ranch will insure a handful of poachers become ranchers only. The rest will still be left in abject poverty looking for a way to feed their families. If it means undercutting the price that ranched rhino sells for, so be it. Besides, the Asians will just decide that ‘free range’ rhino horn is far superior, more than likely, actually increasing both the price and the poaching. I’d call this solution a fail! ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/77 "2011-03-14T19:28:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Who’s _we_, pal? Well, there’s > [@usuboy71](#): > > Rhino ranching refers to farming rhinos for their horns. Poaching is a big problem in Africa because of the false belief in some parts of the world that rhino horns are an aphrodisiac. And then there’s > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then I’d suggest flooding the market with counterfeit rhino-horn powder. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Fact is, anyone who’d buy a rhino-horn aphrodisiac is a fucking moron and I have little or no ethical problem cheating fucking morons out of their money. You didn’t argue the point, so you seem to be included in “we”. I’m not arguing against your proposal to sell fake rhino horn to the people who want rhino horn, I’m arguing that the people who are buying it are buying it because it is rare and difficult to obtain. There’s no evidence that their motivation has anything to do with “I can get rhino horn and you can’t” and plenty of reason to believe their motivation is “rhino horn has these amazing properties”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/78 "2011-03-14T20:36:28Z")
I don’t see how anything you’ve quoted suggests I should be lumped in with people who believe rhino horn is an aphrodisiac. Quite the opposite, actually. Anyway, their precise motivation is irrelevant even your assessment is correct, which I doubt. Idiots are buying rhino horn because they believe rhino horn has medicinal properties. This is not supported by any empirical evidence I’m aware of, yet they buy it anyway. In order to preserve rhinos, sell the idiots fake horn. They won’t know the difference. Just be sure to _tell_ them it’s rhino, and high-quality expensive rhino at that. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/79 "2011-03-14T22:28:37Z")
I’m not saying you believe rhino horn is an aphrodisiac. I am lumping you in the group that assumed people are buying rhino horn because _they_ think it is an aphrodisiac, which Cecil says is not the case. They are buying rhino horn to cure the flu, etc. I guess your solution would work if you move the salesmanship back one level. Sell the fake rhino horn to the TCM practitioners rather than the customers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564/80 "2011-03-15T14:45:14Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I guess your solution would work if you move the salesmanship back one level. > Sell the fake rhino horn to the TCM practitioners rather than the customers. Sure, sell to anyone in the chain who will buy a fake and not know it, or buy a fake and not care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charismatic-mega-fauna-and-rhino-ranching/562564.md?page=3)