# Charles Colson Dead At 80 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 22, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558 "2012-04-22T03:57:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/21 "2012-04-23T07:01:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Because he did his best to subvert democracy and the rule of law: > > • alleged to have sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators; > > • proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out; > > • as a member of CREEP, agreed to spend $250,000 to set up the plumbers unit, which eventually burglarised the office of Daniel Ellsberg’s psychiatrist; > > • leaked information from Ellsberg’s FBI file to the press; > > • heavily involved in the Watergate cover-up from June, 1972 onwards; > > • pled guilty to obstruction of justice. All kid stuff, compared with what CREEP was really all **about,** which was to assure Nixon’s re-election in 1972 by sabotaging the primary campaign of every Dem contender but McGovern, who was judged easiest to beat. It worked. You can read the story in [_Nixonland,_](http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/0743243021) by Rick Perlstein. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/22 "2012-04-23T07:12:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have a hard time seeing Colson as a “great man”. I can’t even believe anyone on Nixon’s team ever thought of him that way, or does now. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/23 "2012-04-23T10:57:39Z")
He made a massive, enormous mistake … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. Yeah, he was a real asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/24 "2012-04-23T11:44:49Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. > > Yeah, he was a real asshole. Yes, he was. Pushing America towards theocracy isn’t doing good, nor is manipulating prisoners into believing falsehoods to recruit them as Republican/fundie political cannon fodder. He was a scummy Republican operative before he went in, and was one when he left; he just changed tactics from more hands-on dirty tricks to demagoguery. And what makes you think he wasn’t _already_ a Christian? The vast majority of Americans are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/25 "2012-04-23T11:45:38Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. [No, he didn’t.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Colson#Political_engagement) > [@](#): > > On October 3, 2002, Colson was one of the co-signers of the Land letter sent to President George W. Bush. The letter was written by Richard D. Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention and co-signed by four prominent American evangelical Christian leaders with Colson among them. The letter outlined their theological support for a just war pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. That, sir, is the work of a damned soul. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/26 "2012-04-23T13:11:22Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake “_ **a** _ mistake”? > [@](#): > > … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. > > Yeah, he was a real asshole. From everything I’ve read about him, I don’t doubt that his conversion to Christianity was sincere or that he spent his life trying to do what he thought was “some good”; and he may have accomplished some genuine good. But… well, for the case against Colson, I happened to run across this pretty scathing post by Frank Schaeffer: [Colson: An Evangelical Homophobic Anti-Woman Leader Passes On](http://frank-schaeffer.blogspot.com/2012/04/colson-evangelical-homophobic-anti.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/27 "2012-04-23T14:07:39Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > “_ **a** _ mistake”? Right, his life was a whole series of outright and borderline criminal activities for definably evil\* purposes. \*Not evil: seeking to advance your political party’s fortunes. Evil: seeking to advance your political party’s fortunes by doing harm to others. See also, _Chuck Colson_. I understand that after a life characterized by many instances of sustained lies to manipulate others, he later claimed to have converted to good (in circumstances where it would manipulate others to his advantage.) What I don’t understand is why _anyone_ would be gullible enough to think that was genuine. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/28 "2012-04-23T14:13:06Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. > > Yeah, he was a real asshole. More like, he was a bastard of the first order who broke laws left and right in an effort to completely subvert democracy – but when he caught and trotted Jesus out for everyone to coo over, suddenly he because a great man. I think it was actually Denis Miller who said, “No one ever finds Jesus on their Prom night.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/29 "2012-04-23T15:14:35Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. Let’s not fall into that trap of equating doing wrong with making a mistake. Committing a crime out of desperation might be considered a mistake. Breaking the law professionally over an extended period of time is doing wrong by choice, and it’s accurate to describe that as just being a heel. What Colson and Nixon’s people did is still shocking. His work with prisoners appears to have been laudable, but that doesn’t mean everything else he did was a mere mistake that should be overlooked. If he was sincere in his repentance, he would know that. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Another great man has left us now. ☹ I find it curious that you haven’t gotten around to explaining why Colson was great. Want to take a stab at it? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/30 "2012-04-23T16:10:56Z")
Any Christians who profess to believe in what Jesus Christ actually said should be lining up to fill Colson’s grave with spittle instead of dirt. There is nothing great about Colson’s blatantly phony self-serving “conversion” to a type of “Christianity” that just happens to have beliefs that exactly line up with his pre-conversion political positions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/31 "2012-04-23T16:20:43Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > \There is nothing great about Colson’s blatantly phony self-serving “conversion” to a type of “Christianity” that just happens to have beliefs that exactly line up with his pre-conversion political positions. To be fair on that point, there is no reason why a sincere religious conversion needs to be a political one as well, is there? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/32 "2012-04-23T18:26:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > To be fair on that point, there is no reason why a sincere religious conversion needs to be a political one as well, is there? “By their fruits, shall you know them”, says I. Frankly, I’d argue that an authentic conversion experience should manifest in SOME visible change of behaviors/attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/33 "2012-04-23T19:23:52Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake No, he didn’t. He didn’t make a single mistake, nor did he make many mistakes. They were on purpose. All the things he did to besmirch his opponents, commit crimes, and attempt to subvert democracy he did on purpose. > [@PandaBear77](#): > > Yeah, he was a real asshole. Despite the fact that you thought you were being sarcastic, this is the part of your post that is factually correct. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/34 "2012-04-23T19:48:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Any Christians who profess to believe in what Jesus Christ actually said should be lining up to fill Colson’s grave with spittle instead of dirt… I don’t recall Jesus’s Spittle on the Burial Mound sermon. Could you refresh my memory? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/35 "2012-04-23T20:00:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [QUOTE=Northern Piper] > > Because he did his best to subvert democracy and the rule of law: > > • alleged to have sought to hire Teamsters thugs to beat up anti-war demonstrators; > > • proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out; > > • as a member of CREEP, agreed to spend $250,000 to set up the plumbers unit, which eventually burglarised the office of Daniel Ellsberg’s psychiatrist; > > • leaked information from Ellsberg’s FBI file to the press; > > • heavily involved in the Watergate cover-up from June, 1972 onwards; > > • pled guilty to obstruction of justice. All kid stuff, compared with what CREEP was really all **about,** which was to assure Nixon’s re-election in 1972 by sabotaging the primary campaign of every Dem contender but McGovern, who was judged easiest to beat. It worked. You can read the story in [_Nixonland,_](http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/0743243021) by Rick Perlstein. [/QUOTE] Hey, I was in a hurry and just scratching the surface! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/36 "2012-04-23T20:03:20Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] > [@PandaBear77](#): > > He made a massive, enormous mistake … went to prison, became a Christian and spent the rest of his life trying to do some good. Let’s not fall into that trap of equating doing wrong with making a mistake. Committing a crime out of desperation might be considered a mistake. Breaking the law professionally over an extended period of time is doing wrong by choice, and it’s accurate to describe that as just being a heel. What Colson and Nixon’s people did is still shocking. His work with prisoners appears to have been laudable, but that doesn’t mean everything else he did was a mere mistake that should be overlooked. If he was sincere in his repentance, he would know that [/QUOTE] This. Mistakes are one thing; conscious, deliberate actions for one’s own benefit are not mistakes. When they’re against the law, they’re criminal offences. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/37 "2012-04-23T20:06:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t recall Jesus’s Spittle on the Burial Mound sermon. Could you refresh my memory? Technically Jesus preferred millstones to spittle for people who misled others about his faith, but y’know, I’m being nice. (Matthew 18:6) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/38 "2012-04-23T21:29:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > “By their fruits, shall you know them”, says I. > > Frankly, I’d argue that an authentic conversion experience should manifest in SOME visible change of behaviors/attitudes. I guess it depends on whether Colson was ashamed (if he was) of breaking the law, or ashamed of doing wrong in a more fundamental _malum in se_ sense. I doubt he ever felt the latter. And it is no great challenge for a man of Colson’s background to reform to the extent of simply no longer breaking the law; especially once he is out of government and no longer has any apparent reason to, and certainly has become too well-known as a (particular and rare kind of) lawbreaker to get away with it any more anyway. No great challenge, but that is all the reformation society reasonably could expect of him, wasn’t it? (Of course, God might turn out to have higher/different standards than society for that sort of thing, who knows . . .) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/39 "2012-04-23T21:45:59Z")
Without commenting on Colson’s conversion in particular, **Qin Shi Huangdi** , I’ll say that conversions from people like him should always be viewed skeptically. To do otherwise is to beg to be made a sucker by cynical people who play on the public’s love of a good redemption story. Certainly he’s not a great man just because he was a conservative who did some horrible things, then stopped doing horrible things after he got caught and did some good things. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/40 "2012-04-23T21:47:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Certainly he’s not a great man just because he was a conservative who did some horrible things, **then stopped doing horrible things after he got caught** and did some good things. Except he didn’t stop doing horrible things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558.md?page=3)